Fr.Nicholas Gruner and the traditionalists at the Fatima Network are not going to criticize the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) for using an irrationality in the interpretation of Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.Since even though Fr.Nicholas Gruner affirms the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus inspired by Scripture, the popes and the Church Councils, he is useing the irrational theology of Cardinal Francesco Marchetti-Selvaggiani. Theologically, Fr.Gruner conceives the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance as refering the cases objectively visible to us in 2014.Of course when asked he would deny this. He would say we cannot see the dead.Probably even Cardinal Francesco Marchetti-Selvaggiani who issued the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 would say the same thing.He was not aware that when someone says there are exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus he is implying that the dead now saved are visible to us.
The baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance are possibilities known only to God. We accept this in theory, hypothetically, in faith and in principle. We cannot accept these cases as being defacto known personally in the present times.This is a given. There is no way we can know these cases in 2014 .
So when these deceased persons do not exist in our reality how can they be defacto exceptions to all needing the baptism of water for salvation in 2014?
So this is the dual postion held by Fr.Gruner, the SSPX bishops and priests and so many other Catholics. They affirm traditional extra ecclesiam nulla salus and they also reject it with visible for us baptism of desire etc.
They then extend this reasoning to Vatican Council II as does the USCCB. It is assumed there is visible for us being saved with ' a ray of the Truth '(NA 2),seen in the flesh being saved in 'imperfect communion with the Church'(UR 3) which are explicit, visible for us exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus. So they reject Vatican Council II.
They use the irrational reasoning with reference to the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 and they accept the Letter issued by Cardinal Francesco Marchetti-Selvaggiani.They use the same irrational reasoning with reference to Vatican Council II and they reject the Council.
So when the USCCB assumes that the dead-saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are exceptions to Tradition Fr.Gruner and the traditionalists have nothing to say. -Lionel Andrades
In the following link Fr.Nicholas Gruner is admonished by W.Paul Doughton for the wrong reasons.Doughton himself assumes that the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance are visible to us in the present times ( defacto).However is not aware of the inference he is making.
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