Editor:
I completely do not understand what you mean by seeing the dead.
Lionel:
I am glad you asked.
I am referring to physics and not theology. I am saying physically with the human eye we cannot see the deceased now saved in Heaven with the baptism of desire.I am saying physically, in the flesh, we cannot see the baptism of desire in someone’s soul.
I am not talking theology.
However when you use theology and assume that there are exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus; all needing to visibly enter the Church, you imply, that physically you can see an exception.
Any time someone says there is an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla sulla, be it the pope, he is inplying that he can physically see the dead.
Lionel:
I am glad you asked.
I am referring to physics and not theology. I am saying physically with the human eye we cannot see the deceased now saved in Heaven with the baptism of desire.I am saying physically, in the flesh, we cannot see the baptism of desire in someone’s soul.
I am not talking theology.
However when you use theology and assume that there are exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus; all needing to visibly enter the Church, you imply, that physically you can see an exception.
Any time someone says there is an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla sulla, be it the pope, he is inplying that he can physically see the dead.
Theologically I agree with the SSPX priests that there is a baptism of desire.
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Who on earth has ever claimed to “see the dead” in relation to the dogma “Outside the Church, no salvation”?
Lionel.
Good point!
Every time some one says there is an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus he is implying that he knows someone on earth who does not need faith and baptism for salvation, or he has divine knowledge and knows someone who will be saved in future without faith and baptism.
The moment you say there are exceptions you imply you can meet someone who does not need to convert, you can physically see him, know him, shake his hands etc.
This is irrational. How can the dead be on earth to be an exception.How can you personally know him after he is dead?
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Good point!
Every time some one says there is an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus he is implying that he knows someone on earth who does not need faith and baptism for salvation, or he has divine knowledge and knows someone who will be saved in future without faith and baptism.
The moment you say there are exceptions you imply you can meet someone who does not need to convert, you can physically see him, know him, shake his hands etc.
This is irrational. How can the dead be on earth to be an exception.How can you personally know him after he is dead?
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Are you saying that if someone who is not sacramentally baptised, but plans to BE sacramentally baptised (i.e. desires to be a member of Christ’s Church) but dies suddenly before his sacramental baptism, are you saying that this person is NOT within the Church because we can’t see him?
Lionel:
No I am not saying this!
He is in the Church.
I am saying that we cannot see him physically so he is always for us a hypothetical case.
If there was such a person in Heaven he would be in Heaven and so would not be an exception to the dogma.
I make the distinction between being invisible (and not being an exception) and being visible ( and being an exception). If you say there is an exception you are telling me this case is visible. You will admit this is irrational. The dead are not visible.
No I am not saying this!
He is in the Church.
I am saying that we cannot see him physically so he is always for us a hypothetical case.
If there was such a person in Heaven he would be in Heaven and so would not be an exception to the dogma.
I make the distinction between being invisible (and not being an exception) and being visible ( and being an exception). If you say there is an exception you are telling me this case is visible. You will admit this is irrational. The dead are not visible.
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I really do struggle to understand what you mean, Lionel. I really do. It’s a very simple dogma – very easy to understand – yet you seem to want to make a meal of it.
Lionel:
I understand .
This is a subtle error that the enemies of the Church have used for some 70 -plus years.
The propaganda on Feeneyism in the secular media sustains this lie and confuses Catholics.
I understand .
This is a subtle error that the enemies of the Church have used for some 70 -plus years.
The propaganda on Feeneyism in the secular media sustains this lie and confuses Catholics.
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