Thursday, June 19, 2014

For you there are exceptions to the dogma on salvation.So you infer that there are VISIBLE cases on earth.Otherwise how could there be exceptions?

Athanasius:
I’m at a loss with this distinction you introduce between implicit and explicit baptism of desire. What exactly are you trying to say?
Lionel:
I am saying that when we have a discussion on a controversial subject we need to define our terms.Otherwise I will be saying something and it could mean something else for you.
The baptism of desire refers to the catechumen who dies before receiving the baptism of water.Theologically some Catholics say that God will provide him with a teacher and the baptism of water necessary for salvation.(St.Thomas Aquinas was one of them).Other Catholics say that the catechuman had justification and also salvation.He could be saved and is saved. This is theology.
I am not referring to theology at this moment. Bear with me.
I am saying that a catechumen who had the desire to receive the baptism of water dies and is in Heaven and is INVISIBLE for us on earth. He cannot be known or seen on earth in a physical sense.This is a theoretical case. A hypothetical case.Please note again I am making an intellectual observation of a fact of life. We cannot see the dead physically. Again I repeat,this is not theology.It is a fact of life that we cannot see the dead.It is an objective understanding that in general, the dead cannot be seen in the flesh on earth.
So I come back to defining our terms.
For me the baptism of desire/ implicit desire refers to the hypothetical case of a person who is INVISIBLE physically on earth.Since he is invisible he cannot be an exception in 2014 to the traditional teaching of the Church which says all need faith and baptism for salvation and there are no exceptions.If he does not exist physically he cannot be an exception.
For you and the editor there are exceptions to the dogma on salvation.So you infer that there are VISIBLE cases on earth.Otherwise how could they be exceptions?
Athanasius:
Do you accept the Church’s complimentary doctrine (complimentary to her infallible dogma)
Lionel:
Now lets define our terms here.
The infallible dogma does not mention any exceptions.I have already provided you the text of Cantate Dominion, Council of Florence,1441 etc.
While I accept an implicit baptism of desire,invisible for me, but theoretically acceptable.
This is complimentary to the infallible dogma.
Athanasius:
of invincible ignorance, baptism of blood and baptism of desire, or do you not accept them?
Lionel:
I accept them only as physically INVISIBLE cases.I accept them as possibilities.I do not accept them as being physically VISIBLE on earth.
Athanasius:
There is no difference in God’s sight between those who implicitly desire baptism and those who make that implicit desire explicit.
Lionel:
This would be the theology.
Athanasius:
God reads the hearts of men regardless of if and how that desire manifests itself to others.
 Lionel:
True. I agree with you here.
Athanasius:
You know, the Church’s formal teaching is very easy for the faithful to understand.
Lionel:
If the faithful understand the baptism of desire as being known to us in special cases, of being VISIBLE to us, I reject this.For the faithful the baptism of desire is an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.For me this view is irrational.
Athanasius:
Why, then, do you seek to complicate it with incomprehensible interpretations of you own making.
 
Lionel:
I am obligated to refer to INVISIBLE and VISIBLE baptism of desire since most people imply ( whether they know it or not) that these hypothetical cases are VISIBLE to us in real life.
Athanasius:
Trust the teaching of the authentic Magisterium
Lionel:
If the magisterium implies that these cases are VISIBLE to us then it is an objective error.
If they imply that the baptism of desire (implicit for us) is an exception to the extra ecclesiam nulla salus then the magisterium has made a factual error.It is common knowledge that we cannot see the dead. This is nor theology or a personal opinion.
Athanasius:
rather than your own imaginings. It’s not a complicated doctrine, Lionel.
 
Lionel:
It is made complicated by those who infer that the deceased-saved are visible to us.
Athansius:
If you do wish to continue to insist on your own theory then you will have to explain your understanding of things with more clarity. At the moment, I don’t know what exactly it is you believe and don’t believe.
Lionel:
I have tried to define my terms.
Basically I would ask you is the baptism of desire referring to cases physically visible to you on earth ?
If these cases are implicit for us and known only to God can they be inferred as being explicit exceptions to the traditional interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus e.g Cantate Dominio, Council of Florence?
-Lionel Andrades

This teaching of the Church on baptism of desire refers to cases which are INVISIBLE or VISIBLE for you ?

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/06/this-teaching-of-church-on-baptism-of.html#links

 

No comments: