Thursday, June 5, 2014

Conversation with an ecumenist -2

Ecumenist:

Thx Lionel, for the good demeanor and thorough responses.
It seems in summary that the root issues all deal with language.
Those who are saved by baptism -- presupposes that the love of God is there -- not the reverse.

Lionel:

The love of God is a constant.It is there for all people. There are no exceptions.Jesus died for all.However to receive salvation all need to believe in Jesus and follow the teachings of the Catholic Church on morals and faith.

Jesus suffers for souls whom He has loved and died for, but who choose to be lost to Hell.
Then there are those who are going to Hell with Original Sin and other sins on their soul since they did not choose to be baptised with water and to live the Gospel.This was a rejection of God's love.

Ecumenist:

It's not a technique. Jesus said the greatest commandment was to have that love with God, not the reverse. Baptism is a love booster, not a replacement for it. True for all sacraments. Love with God is the non-negotiable. 

Lionel:

There will be many people on the Day of Judgement, Scripture tells us who will say 'Lord,Lord I loved you and did this in your name ...'and Jesus will say 'depart from me, I do not know you'. Since their  love was based on their own personal will and not by following the grace of God.It was love without the will of God.

God wills all people to be united in the Catholic Church (CCC 845).

Ecumenist:
Hence, the true Catholic church is the ones where that love is happening both within Roman Catholicism and outside it, though Roman Catholicism is the tree root (and not always the tree branches).


Lionel:
Those who are within the Roman Catholic Church with faith and baptism and who love all , and die without mortal sin on their soul are on the way to Heaven.Those Catholics who do not do this and die with mortal sin un- repentent and un-Confessed will go to Hell even if at some time in their life they have loved, done charity or worked miracles.
This is the teaching of the Catholic Church inspired by the Holy Spirit. This is the teaching of the saints inspired by the Holy Spirit.This is Sacred Tradition inspired by the Holy Spirit. 

Ecumenist:

That has been reiterated by the church more than the other view, which puts church membership over the Christ;

 

 Lionel:
The need to be a member of the Catholic Church is the teaching of Christ.We cannot separate Christ from his only Church. When St.Paul exhorted the disciples and new converts to be faithful to the doctrines of the Church, it was not just any Church or community. Those doctrines are still part of the Catholic Church. He was baptizing within a community and a church.

Ecumenist:

the letter of the church over the Holy Spirit of the Church.

Lionel:
I am following the Catholic Church as inspired by the Holy Spirit over centuries.

Ecumenist:
Popes and encyclicals and modern Catholic leaders like Kreeft have reiterated this over and over.

Lionel:
I am repeating what Peter Kreeft has written in some of his books on the Catholic Church being the only way to God.

Ecumenist:

The only way to defend another view is to mis-read the documents, over-interpret them, instead of connecting to the Spirit that inspires church teaching. It's not the other way around.

Lionel:

One safe way to read the documents is to interpret them according to Sacred Tradition. I am not saying anything new.


Ecumenist:

Further proof for reflection/prayer: those who believe in the hyper-trad view

Lionel:
Hyper-trad view ? I am affirming the teachings of the Church as it has come to us from the Church Fathers, whom Peter Kreeft has praised.

Ecumenist:

don't have the character of love, but of division;

Lionel:
Those who reject the teachings of 2000 years are bringing in new doctrine. In this week's Readings at Mass, St.Paul pleads with the new converts not to follow new doctrine. This would be the work of the evil one.This would be division for him.

Ecumenist:
clearly don't have the Spirit of unity, but of provincialism;

Lionel:
provincialism? Is this a word from some New Revelation. A new revelation opposed to the traditional teachings of the Catholic Church. 

Ecumenist:
and certainly by statistics do not report the miracles anywhere near as much as otherwise.

Lionel:
The majority of people could be rejecting true doctrine and choosing what is convenient and pleasing.Scripture mentions that in the last days they will be doing just this.
You are impressed by miracles. How do you know which are true or will last.

Ecumenist:
Whenever I've prayed with hyper-trads, I've often found nice people who are trying to sincerely defend what they believe (no salv outside of Roman C), but there is unbeknownst almost always a form of the demonic attached -- usually triggered by a parental wound -- where the person feel like a Japanese loyal solider after WWII who didn't know they were still fighting a war that is not there.

Lionel:
you would call Jesus and his teachings hyper-trad. Another New Revelation ?
-Lionel Andrades

Conversation with an ecumenist http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/05/conversation-with-ecumenist.html#links

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