Chrysologos
I've had a look at Gavin D'Costa (www.bristol.ac.uk/religion/about/). He does not refer to the salvation of the non-baptised as being an 'exception' to the above maxim.
I've had a look at Gavin D'Costa (www.bristol.ac.uk/religion/about/). He does not refer to the salvation of the non-baptised as being an 'exception' to the above maxim.
Lionel:Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the
Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into
the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express
language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the
same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by
baptism, as by a door.-Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II
Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly
believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the
Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics,
can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire
which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before
death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this
ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by
the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an
eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of
Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his
almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the
Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of
the Catholic Church."-, Wikipedia, extra ecclesiam nulla salus
In Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7) and in the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla
salus the Catholic Church is saying all need to enter the Church for
salvation.
It means de facto, in reality, in 2014 all need 'faith and baptism' for
salvation.
If someone is saved with ' a ray of the Truth' (Nostra Aetate 2) this case
would not be known to us in 2014. It would be known only to God. So NA 2 does
not contradict AG 7 or extra ecclesiam nulla salus.So how can Gavin D'Costa
infer that this is an exception and so all do not need to enter the Church for
salvation?
NA 2 would refer to a possibility, a probability but not to a known reality
in the present times.
Gavin D'Costa infers that NA 2 is not just a hypothetical case mentioned in
Vatican Council II but it is a known reality. As if he personally knew an
exception in England.
All salvation mentioned in Vatican Council II is implicit and invisible for
us. So it cannot be an exception to the two examples above.
Similarly those saved with the 'seeds of the Word'(AG 11) are possibilities
but they are not relevant to the traditional teaching on all needing to convert
into the Church for salvation( to avoid Hell).
Chrysologos said...
He refers to one who "can be saved who is not a member of the Catholic Church".
Lionel:
Yes as a possibility.No as a known reality in 2014.
Yes as a possibility.No as a known reality in 2014.
Chrysologos:
However, if we take 'ecclesia', as in 'extra ecclesiam...', to refer to the Church as a whole (Church Militant, Church Suffering and Church Triumphant) then the non-baptised are indeed 'on the way of salvation' (Catechism of St Pope Pius X, Q29) 'in a way known to God' (CCC 1260), being brought into, eventually, the Church Triumphant.
However, if we take 'ecclesia', as in 'extra ecclesiam...', to refer to the Church as a whole (Church Militant, Church Suffering and Church Triumphant) then the non-baptised are indeed 'on the way of salvation' (Catechism of St Pope Pius X, Q29) 'in a way known to God' (CCC 1260), being brought into, eventually, the Church Triumphant.
Lionel:
According to Vatican Council II (AG 7) Catholic Faith and the baptism of water are the ordinary means of salvation.
This is the same message in the Catechism of Pope Pius X.The non baptised are on the way to Hell.
According to Vatican Council II (AG 7) Catholic Faith and the baptism of water are the ordinary means of salvation.
This is the same message in the Catechism of Pope Pius X.The non baptised are on the way to Hell.
There are only Catholics in Heaven, those saved with faith and baptism and
who have died without mortal sin on their soul.
The majority of people who die are on the way to Hell since they do not have
'faith and baptism' at the time of death. This is the orthodox teaching for
centuries and it is not contradicted by Vatican Council II. It is supported by
AG 7 and NA 2 is not an exception as Gavin implies.
-Lionel Andrades
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