The Mass, as the centre of our Holy Faith, should:
1. Reinforce the entire Catholic Faith in every aspect – the way we worship contains within itself all that we believe;
Lionel:
Yes it should but this depends on the priest who offers the Mass and delivers the homily.
Yes it should but this depends on the priest who offers the Mass and delivers the homily.
Benedict Carter
2. It should raise up the individual reverently to the majesty and glory of God;
Lionel:
It can do that still.I recall a beautiful Novus Ordo Mass offered by an Italian Franciscan of the Immaculate priest in Rome.
It can do that still.I recall a beautiful Novus Ordo Mass offered by an Italian Franciscan of the Immaculate priest in Rome.
Benedict Carter
3. It should present to the individual (sic) soul the starkness and finality of the moral choices we have to make as Catholics in order to inherit Eternal Life;
Lionel:
This depends upon the priest offering the Mass and delivering the homily and is independent of the liturgy.
This depends upon the priest offering the Mass and delivering the homily and is independent of the liturgy.
Benedict Carter
4. It should keep us in safe continuity with the two thousand years of organic (and in fact miniscule) development of the Church’s main western liturgy, so that we can be Catholics hearing the same words and seeing the same gestures as a Catholic in Italy in the 4th century, as a Portuguese Catholic in the 9th century, as a Swedish Catholic in the 14th century, as an Englishman hearing a recusant Mass in the 17th century; as any Catholic at all until 1968.
Lionel:
This is independent of the liturgy of the Mass and depends on the priest.
The Traditional Latin Mass is being offered by priests who reject the old ecclesiology or are not permitted to express it in public.
This would also be true with the Greek Byzantine Mass offered in Rome.
The liturgy does not determine doctrine.
This is independent of the liturgy of the Mass and depends on the priest.
The Traditional Latin Mass is being offered by priests who reject the old ecclesiology or are not permitted to express it in public.
This would also be true with the Greek Byzantine Mass offered in Rome.
The liturgy does not determine doctrine.
Benedict Carter
Communion in worship is communion in belief, not only with one’s fellow Catholics throughout the world, but with all Catholics throughout the centuries back to the time of Christ Himself.
The Novus Ordo does NOT fulfill any of these functions of worship.
Lionel:
The Novus Ordo Mass is idependent of all these functions of the Church.Doctrine and theology is independent of the liturgy.
The Novus Ordo Mass is idependent of all these functions of the Church.Doctrine and theology is independent of the liturgy.
Benedict Carter
When an SSPX Bishop says that it represents a new religion, he speaks as a Bishop (yes I know, illicitly consecrated and suspended a divinis) and not as the holder of unusual historical opinions.
Lionel:
The SSPX bishop could be making an error in doctrine and then attributing it to the Novus Ordo Mass.
The SSPX bishop could be making an error in doctrine and then attributing it to the Novus Ordo Mass.
Benedict Carter
This view should be thought about most carefully by any serious Catholic. It is a terrible charge to lay on the Novus Ordo and I believe that fundamentally it is correct.
Lionel:
I believe it is fundamentally wrong.
I believe it is fundamentally wrong.
Benedict Carter
That there has been a gigantic rupture in the Church these past fifty years cannot be denied. Those who do deny it are either very stupid, have a vested interest in the rupture or (even worse) are quite happy that it occurred, whatever the damage done; or have been formed by it and don’t know anything else.
Lionel:
There has been a rupture.
There has been a rupture.
Benedict Carter
I was born in 1963 so came to self-consciousness with the changes already made. I count myself extremely lucky to be the child of parents whose whole lives and characters were formed by and steeped in the Catholic Faith of their parents, people of the First World War generation. So prayers were said, our home was full of religious pictures, statues, music, books and conversation, going to Mass was a very serious matter and the whole world of Catholicism was in our home constantly.
Lionel:
The same with me. I was born in 1954.
The same with me. I was born in 1954.
Benedict Carter
The rupture has caused conflict within families, civil war in the Church, and apostasy on a scale not seen since the 16th century and before that, in the time of Arius; and has lost countless souls. I am sure of this latter point: the changes have cost many, many souls. At the heart of the rupture is the Novus Ordo: quite understandable, as the Mass is the centre and summit of the Catholic Faith. So what is the nature of the rupture, seen most vividly in the New Mass?
‘At the heart of the rupture is the Novus Ordo: quite understandable,..’
Lionel:
No it not the Novus Ordo Mass. It is reflected in the Novus Ordo Mass. It is also reflected in the Traditional Latin Mass offered in Rome.
Benedict Carter
‘So what is the nature of the rupture, seen most vividly in the New Mass?..’
Lionel:
It is the use of an obvious irrationality to change doctrine and suggest there is a New Revelation in the Catholic Church.It is a specific error. Get rid of the error and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Vatican Council II and other magisterial documents become traditional.
It is the use of an obvious irrationality to change doctrine and suggest there is a New Revelation in the Catholic Church.It is a specific error. Get rid of the error and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Vatican Council II and other magisterial documents become traditional.
When these documents are found to be traditional by the majority of Catholics, the priests and laity will express this during Mass in the different rites.Then there will be a natural hermeneutic of continuity.
-Lionel Andrades
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