(Note: March 30,2014. All my comments/replies are there once again on Protect the Pope)
On the blog Protect the Pope there was a comment by Catholic at Rome.
On the blog Protect the Pope there was a comment by Catholic at Rome.
I replied.My comment was deleted. All my other replies and posts were deleted except for the first one in which I thanked Mrs. Donnely for accepting the report Bishop Bernard Fellay made a doctrinal error : contradicts the Catechism of Pope Pius X.
From Protect the Pope, 'Lionel Andrades and Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus'
Catholic at Rome
Mrs. Donnelly,
You have to take some care with those like Lionel who want to defend the followers and doctrines of Fr. Feeney, SJ. Fr. Feeney was a famous apologist from Boston USA, but in his writings he often switched between senses of terms. Thus, his personal doctrine about Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus in certain points veered away from the teaching of the Fathers.
Lionel:
I am affirming extra ecclesiam nulla salus according to Vatican Council II (AG 7), the Catechism of the Catholic Church 846, the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus defined three times by three different Church Councils.
True, Outside of the Church there is no salvation, is a dogma of the Church, and this means. not only that all salvation which comes alone from Christ’s merits, flows from His Church, the Catholic Church, but also that you can only receive it if you die a faithful member of that Church.
Lionel:
At first he says it is true Outside of the Church there is no salvation is a dogma of the Church. Then he says it means....What he adds here is not mentioned in the text of the dogma nor repeated by the many saints and popes who affirmed the same dogma over centuries. The dogma does not mention any exceptions.
However, Fr. Feeney went further and denied the Patristic teaching, which is common teaching today,
Lionel:
The Patristic teaching is common today ?! The Church Fathers said the baptism of desire was visible to us on earth and so was an exception to the dogma! They too could see the dead-saved who had come down to earth to be visible exceptions to Tradition.
approved by such doctors of the Church as St. Alphonsus dei Liguori, that there is an extraordinary case in which someone dies with the grace necessary to be saved, without however being a visible member of the Catholic Church.
Lionel:
He said that there is an extra ordinary case and this case was a visible exception to the literal interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney ?!
This is called “Baptism of Desire” in English, but in Latin, baptismus flaminis, or more correctly translated as, “Baptism by the flame of inspiration”. It is postulated to occur when the Holy Spirit inspires one with faith in Christ with such purity that if he knew of the Church he would have joined the Church. But invinceable ignorance, the human incapacity to know the Church and overcome this ignorance, intervenes, and thus it results that the man dies in the grace of God, but visibly outside the Church.
Lionel:
And we know these cases. We personally can name them for them to be relevant and to be mentioned here?!
In Explaining this hypothetical case as with the expression Baptism of Desire many have fallen into error, because they do not have recourse to the patristic teaching, and the strict meaning of the terms underwhich it must be explained.
Lionel:
It is a hypothetical case and the strict way in which it has to be explained is that these cases being 'also' non-hypothetical but defacto and known in reality are exceptions to the centuries old interpretation !!?.
It is not, as the followers of Fr. Feeney say, a way of replacing Baptism by water, which is an remains according to the Teaching of Christ the only means, visible and invisible, for becomming a member of Christ’s Church, when the one receiving this, desires this; for a man baptised in the Protestant Church desiring to be a member of that Church, does not desire to be a member of the true and only Church, and thus the effect of Baptism, which is inherent in the sacrament is thwarted. Baptism of Desire is not a sacrament, nor does any man know with certainty whether he himself or another has received such a grace from the Holy Ghost.
Lionel:
Once again what has the baptism of desire, without the baptism of water or with the baptism of water have to do with the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.?
But theologians commonly say, so as to affirm the pre-eminence of the action of the Holy Spirit and the essential efficacy of sanctifying grace, that if such a case were to exist, then the movement of grace given by the Holy Spirit would alone be sufficient to save the man, and ipso facto make him a member at death in the Church triumphant or suffering, though he was never a visible member of the Church militant.
Lionel:
So what ? Once again- do we know this case for this to be relevant to the interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney?
Thus there is no reason to condemn the fathers of the SSPX on this score, who have sought to eradicate the exaggerations and errors spread by many disciples of Fr. Feeney, who, like them, are right in holding fast to the Ancient Roman Rite.
Lionel:
The leaders of the SSPX are not being condemned here. I am pointing out that Bishop Fellay has made a doctrinal error, so that, he will correct it. Once he corrects it, it will have important consequences in the Catholic Church. The same error is being made by the cardinals and archbishops of the CDF and the rest of the Vatican but they do not want to correct it.
I am not a member of Fr.Leonard Feeney's community and I did not come to this issue through his community. I am not using their theology nor that of the SSPX.
I am only making a philosophical, intellectual observation. It is, we cannot see the dead who are now saved in Heaven. So how can the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance be an exception to the literal interpretation of the dogma according to Fr.Leonard Feeney or the saints and popes?
Finally, in this discussion of Baptism as necessary, one must distinguish between necessary by a necessity of means and necessary by a necessity of precept, and necessary by a necessity of being.
Lionel:
Either way it is known only to God. So why mention it ? It is not an exception to all needing to convert into the Catholic Church in 2014 for salvation.
Baptism by water is the sacrament precepted by Christ for salvation: as a sacrament it is necessary by a necessity of precept. The common teaching regarding Baptism of desire, holds that Baptism by water is not necessary absolutely by a necessity of being, and that there exists an except to the precept to receive the Sacrament though there is no exception to the fundamental grace and act required to receive the Sacrament: namely to the grace of faith and penance with justification and sanctifying grace.
Lionel:
If the baptism of desire results in only justification or also in salvation, we still must remember that there is no known case in 2014 for it to be an exception to the dogma.We have to look at the issue philosophically too.
For those who don’t see the theological necessity for affirming the efficacy of the baptismus flaminis, they fall into denying its underlying truths, namely the primacy of the Holy Spirit’s action in giving the grace of faith and penance, in justifying a sinner, and in saving the elect; the universality of Christ’s merits, the limitations of human ignorance, etc.
Lionel:
Does the Holy Spirit say that we can see the dead? Would the Holy Spirit teach this irrationality and then allow us to build a theology upon it ?
However, on the side of those who attacked Fr. Feeney and many of his disciples, there is often lost the appreciation for the universality of God’s Providence, which should be presumed to provide all necessary occasions for salvation to the Elect, and the terrible justice of God which ought to punish every failing to be faithful to God’s Providential designs, howsoever small, a Justice which has the right to damn a man, even for a venial fault, since salvation is simply and purely a gift, and never in se merited prior to justification; even though for those justified, one can by good works, faith and charity, merit salvation, for this is the blessed wonder which grace effects, the collaboration in one’s own salvation (de condigno) and that of others (de congruo).
Lionel:
Yes salvation is a gift and a grace finally and it is known only to God. Those who are saved are visible only to Him
http://protectthepope.com/?p=10239
http://protectthepope.com/?p=10239
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