Tuesday, November 19, 2013

Ecclesiology is not dependent on the liturgy

From the SSPX (N.America District) website with comments.

The Mass defines the Church and its mission!

We re-offer this Pastor's Corner piece from December 2012.
A California priest wrote an article which is certainly thought provoking, if fiery, on the ‘evil fruits’ of the Old Mass’ return.[1] Here are some of his statements:
Those attached to the extraordinary form are not like Civil War re-enactment societies. Unlike these, the people attached to the extraordinary form are seriously trying to enact a particular worldview and understanding of church as if it could ever return...
Lionel: Yes it could in a sense if one simple error is removed. 
…Pope Paul VI also understood this. The rejection of the Vatican II liturgy is a rejection of its ecclesiology and theology. When his philosopher friend Jean Guitton asked why not concede the 1962 missal to breakaway Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, the Pope responded:
Lionel: Ecclesiology is not dependent on the liturgy.One can offer the Novus Ordo or Traditional Latin Mass using a false premise in theology. It is the premise that changes ecclesiology irrespective of the liturgy. 
"Never. This Mass ...becomes the symbol of the condemnation of the Council. Should this exception to the liturgy of Vatican II have its way, the entire council would be shaken. And, as a consequence, the apostolic authority of the Council would be shaken."[2]
Lionel: He identifies the new church, the new doctrines and theology with Vatican Council II. He is unaware that there can be a Vatican Council II which uses a false premise in its interpretation.
...Liturgy is not about taste or aesthetics. It is how the church defines itself. The council's vision was that of a priestly people on mission. Clear elements express the active exercise of the priestly people of God: the prayer of the faithful, the offertory procession and the kiss of peace. These signs incarnate for the priesthood of all believers the task to proclaim the Gospel and to make intercession for the world and all people.
The liturgy that came out of the Middle Ages and Trent had a different emphasis. Focus was not on preparing all the baptized for mission but on the power of the ordained to transform bread and wine. The idea of the "unbloody reenactment of the sacrifice of the cross" pushed "thanksgiving for creation and consecrating the world" to the margins of Eucharistic theology. The power of the clergy to make Christ present in Eucharist eclipsed the Eucharist's power to transform the baptized.
The author goes on to say that the Roman Missal (from the time of Trent until 1962) reduced the laity to mere spectators:
They are there to watch the priest say "his" Mass. The emphasis is hierarchical and legalistic (who has the power and how are they lawfully exercising that power). Rather than the risen Christ working through the whole people of God (lay and ordained), we have a powerful clergy ministering to a passive people. Instead of church as sacrament, we have church as a juridical hierarchy.
Our author even goes so far as to put the Carmelite reform of St. Teresa of Avila in his bag, as being a promoter of the aggiornamento in her own time, saying, among other things: "From sour-faced saints and silly devotions, good Lord, preserve us!"
May God pardon him for such hasty rapprochements that have little to do with the deformed rites of sacrilegious liturgists which possess very little Catholic inspiration. In St. Teresa’s strict inquisitorial times, these innovators would have been nipped in the bud and no Christian would have had to face the shame of a Godless liturgy with its soulless expressions of ‘art’.
The great interest about the article is that it goes right to the jugular: the liturgy defines the dogma and the purpose of the Church.
Lionel: False. Liturgy is independent of dogma and the purpose of the Church.Today a false premise is being used in the interpretation of magisterial documents. This has continued since 1949 . After Vatican Council II  priests who offer Mass in the vernacular and those who offer the Tridentine Rite Mass in Rome uses this premise to create a new ecclesiolgy. They are both denying the Catholic faith on exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church.
 To a democratic conglomeration of freelance laymen without specific powers and calling, there corresponds a dynamic and man-centered desacralized liturgy. To a hierarchical and hieratic Church flowing from the side of Christ all the way to the least faithful through the mediation of ordained pastors with a specific mission of saving souls from perdition, there corresponds a liturgy which respects the distinction, God-centered and sacrificial in character.
Lionel: The God-centered and sacrificial charachter can also be there in the Novus Ordo Mass.
The caricature of the Tridentine faithful is as easy a target as it is grossly erroneous. For even if the man in the pew understands little of the Divine Action taking place at Mass, nevertheless he will still be an actor fully invested in the drama of the Mass. Far from putting one to sleep, it will arouse in him sentiments of devotion, humility and self-offering to the God who descends on the altars to renew the same sacrifice performed once for all on the cross. The Tridentine faithful know the mystery of the cross — the only thing St. Paul deemed worth teaching — thus they know how to live by it because it is ever present before his eyes.
Lionel: So also at Mass in the vernacular.Even those who offer the Novus Ordo Mass and attend it know the mystery of the Cross.
There is little doubt that during the 20th century, popes did a great deal to promote the liturgy and its full splendor by encouraging and engaging the faithful to participate in these celebrations. The restoration of sacred music and the availability of the dialogue Mass are clear examples of the popularity of the liturgy — and most averse to a passive sitting at an abstruse rite often wrongly associated with the traditional rite. And how can one affirm that the new rite was popular when it cleared the church from most of its faithful and left the ‘president’ virtually without an ‘assembly’?
They make a banner out of the Mass” was the objection some authorities used to make against Archbishop Lefebvre. Our founder — everyone knows it, although few confess it — saved the Mass and the priestly spirit! Yes, indeed, the Mass of All Time has been, is and will be forever our battle flag, our logo, our source of life and our greatest prize.
Lionel: The SSPX priests offer the Tridentine Rite Mass while assuming there are known exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. With this false premise they assume that Vatican Council II is a break with Tradition.
The problem is with the premise and not the Mass.
-Lionel Andrades
1 This article cites and quotes from “Attempt to resurrect pre-Vatican II Mass leaves church at crossroads” published in the National Catholic Reporter on December 8, 2012.
2 The quotes are cited from True Reform: Liturgy and Ecclesiology in Sacrosanctum Concilium by Massimo Faggioli.

Where is the text in Vatican Council II which contradicts the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus?

These are the two questions I ask priests:
1.Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7) is in accord with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ? (1)

2.Lumen Gentium 16, Lumen Gentium 8, Ad Gentes 11, Unitatis Redintigratio 3 and Nostra Aetate 2 are not known exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus? (2)
-Lionel Andrades


Ad Gentes 7
Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door.


Lumen Gentium 16
16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

Lumen Gentium 8
8. Christ, the one Mediator, established and continually sustains here on earth His holy Church, the community of faith, hope and charity, as an entity with visible delineation (9*) through which He communicated truth and grace to all. But, the society structured with hierarchical organs and the Mystical Body of Christ, are not to be considered as two realities, nor are the visible assembly and the spiritual community, nor the earthly Church and the Church enriched with heavenly things; rather they form one complex reality which coalesces from a divine and a human element.(10*) For this reason, by no weak analogy, it is compared to the mystery of the incarnate Word. As the assumed nature inseparably united to Him, serves the divine Word as a living organ of salvation, so, in a similar way, does the visible social structure of the Church serve the Spirit of Christ, who vivifies it, in the building up of the body.(73) (11*)
This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, (12*) which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd,(74) and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority,(75) which He erected for all ages as "the pillar and mainstay of the truth".(76) This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him,(13*) although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.
Ad Gentes 11
11. The Church must be present in these groups through her children, who dwell among them or who are sent to them. For all Christians, wherever they live, are bound to show forth, by the example of their lives and by the witness of the word, that new man put on at baptism and that power of the Holy Spirit by which they have been strengthened at Conformation. Thus other men, observing their good works, can glorify the Father (cf. Matt. ES:16) and can perceive more fully the real meaning of human life and the universal bond of the community of mankind.
In order that they may be able to bear more fruitful witness to Christ, let them be joined to those men by esteem and love; let them acknowledge themselves to be members of the group of men among whom they live; let them share in cultural and social life by the various. undertakings and enterprises of human living; let them be familiar with their national and religious traditions; let them gladly and reverently lay bare the seeds of the Word which lie hidden among their fellows. At the same time, however, let them look to the: profound changes which are taking place among nations, and let them exert themselves to keep modern man, intent as he is on the science and technology of today's world from becoming a stranger to things divine; rather, let them awaken in him a yearning for that truth and:charity which God has revealed. Even as Christ Himself searched the hearts of men, and led them to divine light, so also His disciples, profoundly penetrated by the Spirit of Christ, should show the people among whom they live, and should converse with them, that they themselves may learn by sincere and patient dialogue what treasures a generous God has distributed among the nations of the earth. But at the same time, let them try to furbish these treasures, set them free, and bring them under the dominion of God their Savior.

Unitatis Redintigratio 3
3. Even in the beginnings of this one and only Church of God there arose certain rifts,(19) which the Apostle strongly condemned.(20) But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame. The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic Church - whether in doctrine and sometimes in discipline, or concerning the structure of the Church - do indeed create many obstacles, sometimes serious ones, to full ecclesiastical communion. The ecumenical movement is striving to overcome these obstacles. But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body,(21) and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.(22)
Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ.
The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.
Nostra Aetate 2
2. From ancient times down to the present, there is found among various peoples a certain perception of that hidden power which hovers over the course of things and over the events of human history; at times some indeed have come to the recognition of a Supreme Being, or even of a Father. This perception and recognition penetrates their lives with a profound religious sense.
Religions, however, that are bound up with an advanced culture have struggled to answer the same questions by means of more refined concepts and a more developed language. Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust. Again, Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world; it teaches a way by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, may be able either to acquire the state of perfect liberation, or attain, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination. Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing "ways," comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ "the way, the truth, and the life" (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.

Another member of the Group of 8 Cardinals makes the news – Church must “repent of scaremongering hell,” according to Cardinal Marx

Another member of the Group of 8 Cardinals makes the news – Church must “repent of scaremongering hell,” according to Cardinal Marx  

C-8 Cardinal Advisor 1: Cardinal Marx Corrects Jesus and Abolishes Hell and Purgatory



I would remain with Our Lady's many apparitions

In Our Lady's Messages to Fr.Stefano Gobbi of the Marian Movement of Priests in the 1970's and 1980's she warned us about the changes to come into the church in doctrine and theology.We see this happening on such a big scale.
Even in Japan we see how the Jesuits have lost the faith, how they have compromised with other traditions.
At Akita Our Lady has said that Satan will enter the Church and religious will compromise even on the Eucharist. There are cardinals who give the Eucharist to pro abortion politicians.
At the Gregorian Pontifical University Rome they now have a Department of The Theology of Religions , which is part of the Department of Missiology. They do mission knowing other religions are equal paths to salvation.
They deny the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and have changed the Nicene Creed and they offer Holy Mass or receive the Eucharist.
Has this priest(1) ever commented on all this? The new church with new doctrines and a theology based on a false premise.The false premise is being used in the interpretation of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and Vatican Council II.
If it was not for the prayers and warnings at Medugorje there would have been a Third World War originating also from that region. A previous World War was triggered from there.
Marija during an apparitionAt Fatima Our Lady has said that the faith will be lost (except in Portugal).
Is this not a correct warning?
Has not the Eucharist been compromised and will it be further compromised?
One has to be gullible and naive to believe what is being taught at Pontifical Universities and supported by the Vatican cardinals is the teaching of the Catholic Church, especially on faith and salvation.
I would remain with Our Lady's apparitions.
-Lionel Andrades
Piety and gullibility too often go together
http://www.ucanews.com/news/piety-and-gullibility-too-often-go-together/69717 (from Spirit Daily)

Archbishop George Pearce speaks of Medjugorje