Friday, November 8, 2013

CDF has not said that visits to Medugorje are prohibited and that Our Lady is not appearing there

from Mundabors blog with comments.
In my eyes, one of the main keys to a proper understanding of every apparition is one simple but at the same time very difficult word: obedience. Obedience is what we saw when the Fatima apparitions were initially – as it was very natural – seen with scepticism from the local clergy and obedience is what we saw when the apparitions to St Faustina Kowalska were considered not authentic by the Vatican. Obedience is, therefore, not only an obvious element of sainthood, but the path clearly indicated by many (perhaps: all) approved apparitions. Most certainly, no approved apparition ever incited to disobedience. In fact, it has never been prescribed by the doctor that an apparition be immediately recognised as authentic, but it has always been prescribed by the Church that Her decisions in the matter be accepted and obeyed.
God doesn’t need disobedience to have His will recognised; on the contrary, he will use obedience as a way to have it recognised.
It must be clear to every sensible Catholic that no alleged apparition can ever authorise disobedience, and that the Blessed Virgin would never ever suggest disobedience to the Church. Therefore, when the bishop (well, two bishops, really) says that there is nothing supernatural happening in Medjugorje, that’s that.
After the bishop of Mostar said there was nothing supernatural about Medugorje, the Vatican was 'disobedient'. They took the issue out of his hand and formed a Commission to investigate Medugorje.
To say that one wants to wait for the Pope is already disobedience; there is no need for the Pope because the cleric responsible for the verdict on apparitions is not the Pope, but the bishop. “Oh, but the Pope could reverse the decision”. Well I am sorry to say that, but you’ll have to wait and hope, and obey in the meantime.
Pope Benedict XVI formed a new Commission under  Cardinal Camilio Ruini. He has not condemned the apparitions.
With the train of thought of the Medjugorje crowd,
The 'crowd' consists of hundreds of thousands of Catholics who pray regularly and have changed their life for the better.Most of them are young Catholics.
I could wake up one morning and say that I am the Second Son of God; I could receive a message from papi every day at 6:30 pm and give it to the adoring crowds; and these crowds would feel free and authorised to believe that I am The Second Son – even after the Bishop has said that I am no supernatural phenomenon at all – because the Pope hasn’t pronounced himself on the matter (which would, very probably, never happen).
Pope Benedict XVI has pronounced himself on this matter indirectly when he did not prohibit pilgrimages to  Medugorje and formed a new Commission.He also overruled the bishop of Mostar.
 Of course I’d have God encourage people to communion, confession, and the like, and I’d have Him talk a lot about peace, understanding among the Peoples, and all that jazz. “Thank you for listening”, I’d have God say every day. It pleases the ego of the public, so it can’t be bad.
To think in this way is not devotion. No it isn’t. Superstition and rebellion, that’s what it is.
For those who pray and are inspired by Medugorje it is not 'all that jazz'.There are Medugorje prayer groups which do not mention the visionaries but meet to pray the rosary.
It follows from this that even if people arrived in Medjugorje and started to fly it would still not be an authentic apparition, because no authentic apparition can incite to disobedience. You have converted? Good for you! God can convert you in the middle of a dump, but a dump it will remain.
The idea that the Blessed Virgin would go against the Church is worse than unorthodox; it is diabolical.
The Church has not said that the apparitions are diabolical. For example the Church has prohibited Catholics associating with Vassula Ryden and her apparitions. There has been no such pronouncement yet regarding Medugorje.
If the Church does make such an announcement about Medugorje it will be followed.
The Papal Nuncio's statement is restricted to the USA. There is no official announcement yet from the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith regarding private visits to Medugorje, as there had been  regarding  Vassula Ryden.
Unsurprisingly, disobedience in matters of authenticity leads to disobedience in all other matters. A lady on twitter informed me that God leaves every person free to choose, after death, to decide whether he really, really wants to go to hell or would, rather, not choose paradise (oh, you chose the latter? you don’t say?). I kid you not. I answered to her that this is an error. The Blessed Virgin in Medjugorje said it, was her answer.
We are at this point. Basic Christianity counts for nothing, a daily fax is the new God. But hey, an army of poor deluded devils go to communion and confession, so it must be fine. With this reasoning Jansenists were fine, too.
So let us recapitulate: forget the alleged “good fruits”, because an entire orchard of poisoned fruits is clearly visible; forget the alleged healings, because they are available in quantity at every pentecostal mega-gathering; forget the number of confessions or communions, because they are available everywhere outside of Medjugorje; forget how many people get inspired or converted, because this is something Protestants manage to do every day. The key here is the matter of obedience. It can’t be that the Blessed Virgin is disobedient, this is the purest oxymoron you’ll ever encounter.
When the Medugorje seers were told not to use the churches in Croatia-Bosnia for the apparitions, they were obedient.They have not been told that their apparitions are diabolical as Mundabor states here.
Every “follower” of Medjugorje must seriously ask himself what he would have to abandon, if he decided to obey the Bishop. If the answer is “nothing, I am completely orthodox anyway”, there is no reason whatsoever not to obey the bishop. If the answer has any other content whatsoever (cue the lady who wants to believe that one can choose between hell and heaven after death) then what keeps one linked to Medjugorje is heresy. And I would like for the rhetoric of the “good simple people who are deceived” to be abandoned once and for all. For twenty centuries, countless illiterate peasants have accepted their bishops’ decisions in matter of miracles without any problem. This is not so difficult that every person could not, after examining his conscience, have it right in five seconds; ten seconds, tops.
The bishop is responsible. The bishop has spoken. You either obey the bishop, or you make the work of the devil.
Which bishop is being referred to here?
Cardinal C. Ruini and the Yugoslav bishops have not yet condemned the apparitions or prohibited them for Catholics.Neither have any of the popes.
P.s. The comment box is closed. These are matters of elementary truth. Truth is accepted, not discussed.
It is the truth that there is no announcement from the CDF saying that visits to Medugorje are prohibited or that Our Lady is not appearing there. Instead it is said that the apparitions are  under investigation.

Calling all Protestants- Michael Voris

Papal Nuncio what is the CDF policy for American students at the Opus Dei university in Rome?

Do Ivan Dragicevic and his wife have to claim they can see the dead in Boston as was expected of Fr.Leonard Feeney.
I sent an e-mail with a blogpost on this Luno-Giordano problem to an American priest on the Vigilance Committee of the University of the Holy Cross who is based in Chicago, Rev. Prof. John Wauck.(1).
Fr.John Wauck and the Archdiocese of Chicago possibly assume there are known exceptions in Rome or elsewhere, to all needing to convert into the Church for salvation. American students at this Opus Dei university are expected to say that there are visible phenomena, like the dead man walking, which contradicts the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, Vatican Council II (AG 7,LG 14) and the Catechism of the Catholic Church (845,846).
This would be expected of them by Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò, the Papal Nuncio to the USA.This is also the position of Mons. Ronny Jenkins, General Secretary of the USCCB,  in conformity with the USCCB Notification on Fr.Peter Phan. It referred to being saved in invincible ignorance etc as exceptions.
So Ivan Dragičević , the Medugorje  seer who lives with his wife in Boston, will have to say that he can see the dead, even though in this case he cannot.This would be expected of him by the Archbishop of Boston, the Papal Nuncio to the US and the Secretary of the USCCB. These would be the new demands on the Medugorje seer and his wife and children.
Without speaking to Our Lady, Ivan Dragičević could tell the Papal Nuncio, the Archbishop and the USCCB that it is irrational to claim that the dead are visible, who are known exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. It would be irrational to assume that LG 16 (invincible ignorance) contradicts AG 7 (all need faith and baptism).
 Opus Dei - Bishop Javier Echevarría
Yet this irrationality is the official policy for all students including Americans at the University of the Holy Cross in Rome.The Opus Dei Prelature has not commented on this issue or answered the two questions.(2)For the Opus Dei Theological Faculty in Rome the Luno-Giordano problem does not exist.Bishop Javier Echevarría, is the Prelate of Opus Dei and Grand Chancellor of the Pontifical University of the Holy Cross.
Whatever be ones motivation, to repeatedly suggest that the dead are visible is a falsehood.This is an irrational, new doctrine of there being known exceptions to the dogma.It is wrong to suggest that this is what the Catholic Church teaches.It should have been corrected also by Fr. John Wuack and other members of the Vigilance team who have been contacted.
Could some one ask the Papal Nuncio the two questions with reference to the American students studying at the Holy Cross university or serving with Opus Dei ?
Could Medugorje pilgrims ask the Papal Nuncio how is Ivan Dragičević and his wife to respond to these two questions ?
-Lionel Andrades

1) Do we personally know the dead now saved in invincible ignorance, a good conscience (LG 16) etc,can we see them, are they physically visible to us in 2013 ? 

2) Since we do not know any of these cases, there are no known exceptions to the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ?

Octave for the dead

Nuns at the cemetery of San Lorenzo in Verano yesterday Thursday (Nov. 7,2013)