It is the same Catechism of the Catholic Church and one can interpret passages in agreement with the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Or, one can interpret passages irrationally, assuming the dead are visible.This would be a break with the past. A rupture with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
To assume those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are visible to us on earth and so are exceptions to the dogma is irrational. This is the interpretation being used by the President of the Vatican Commission Investigating Medugorjore, Cardinals of the Vatican Curia and Archbishops at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
Catechism of the Catholic Church 1281 :Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved even if they have not been baptized (cf. LG 16).
Cardinal Camilio Ruini and cardinals:
For the cardinals these catechumens are known to us in 2012 and so they are explicit exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus which says all need to convert into the Church for salvation(to avoid Hell).
Lionel: We do not know any of these catechumens in 2012 so they are not an exception to the dogma on exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church.The cardinals reviewing Medugorje are using an irrational interpretation.Vicka's message will be controversial. Since which interpretation are you using ? One interpretation indicates most people go to Heaven and the other indicates most people do not go to Heaven.
CCC 1257 :The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
Cardinals: God is not bound by his sacraments and so every one on earth does not need the baptism of water for salvation.
Lionel: God is not bound by his sacraments and we accept this in principle, as a possibility,only. We do not known any such case in 2012 and so it does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. CCC 1257 and CCC 1281 are in accord with the thrice defined dogma on salvation.
It is irrational for the cardinals to assume that the dead who are saved are visible.
CCC 1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
Cardinals: The baptism of desire and blood are exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
Lionel: Baptism of desire and blood refer to cases known only to God. So they cannot be exceptions to the dogmatic teaching on salvation.
CCC 1259 :For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
Cardinals: The Catechumens can be saved without the baptism of desire and these cases are known to us.So they are exceptions to the dogma.
Lionel: Yes in principle as a possibility they can be saved without the baptism of water if God chooses it as such. However this is a hypothetical case. In 2012 all need the baptism of water for salvation since we cannot meet any exceptions to the dogmatic teaching.
CCC 1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
Cardinals: A man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and his Church can be saved. So this is an exception to Tradition and especially the dogma on salvation.
Lionel:A person can be saved in invincible ignorance and these cases are irrelevant to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. We cannot know who is saved with implicit salvation. It is not explicit for us.
CCC 1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
Cardinal :We can entrust them to the mercy of God.
Lionel: We can entrust them to the mercy of God.
CCC 846 :How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
Cardinals: All who are saved are saved through Jesus and the Church.
Lionel: Yes and this does not contradict the dogma. We cannot meet someone on the street who we know is saved by Jesus and the Church or is going to be saved as such.
CCC 847 :This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
Cardinals: Those who saved through no fault of their own are exceptions to the dogma.
Lionel: They are unknown to us in 2012.
CCC 848 ."Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."
Cardinals: They can be saved who are in ignorance through no fault of their own.
Lionel: It was Cardinal Richard Cushing, the Archbishop of Boston, in the Fr.Leonard Feeney case who assumed that those saved in ignorance were exceptions to the literal interpretation of the dogma. If Fr.Leonard Feeney accepted or rejected these cases it was irrelevant to his literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
The liberal, non traditional interpretation of the Catechism of the Catholic Church comes from assuming that the dead who are saved are visible to us and so are an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.This interpretation has no basis in the Catechism. Since the Catechism does not state that these cases are visible or are an exception to the dogma. This is implied by the cardinals.They cannot provide any reference from the Catechism for their error.
Posts
