The Catechism seems to be written in a style in which it can please the traditionalists and the liberals, one can use a defacto-dejure interpretation or a defacto-defacto intrepretation. It is confusing to many lay Catholics. Here is a sample.
Dejure (CCC 847). 'This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church...'
The Archbishop of Boston Richard Cushing and the Jesuits there assumed that ‘those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ and his Church’ are defacto exceptions to the dogma. The dogma was interpreted for centuries as every one needs to defacto enter the Church and there are no known exceptions. This would mean defacto every one with no exception needs to enter the Catholic Church and there can also be defacto exceptions of some people who do not have to enter i.e. those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ and the his Church’ and yet are saved.
This is an error. Since we do not know anyone as mentioned in CCC 847. If we do not know anyone on earth as described above how can it be an exception to the dogma outside the church there is no salvation?
So why is CCC 847 placed under the sub section Outside the Church No Salvation?
It would be rational to say de facto everyone needs to enter the Church and de jure (in principle) we accept that some people can be saved in invincible ignorance and it would be known only to God. The defacto-dejure reasoning does not contradict the Principle of Non Contradiction.
Dejure (CCC 848) "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."
In principle (de jure) we know God can lead persons ‘who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him,’. Defacto in reality we do not know a single such case. So it is not a defacto exception to the dogmatic teaching that every one needs to convert into the Church. One can only choose to convert into the Church with the baptism of water and Catholic Faith.
Defacto (in reality, practically, explicitly) CCC1257 :The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.
Dejure (in principle) 'Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.'
The baptism of water is de facto necessary for all. (See above 1257).Since the Catechism implies (See above) that those ‘who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel,’ is defacto known to us, it is stated the baptism is necessary for only ‘those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.’ Baptism is not defacto necessary for those who ‘are ignorant of the Gospel’ etc.
Those who are ignorant of the Gospel are not known to us?!! There is no such known person on earth. We do not know anyone in particular who is saved in this category. So how can we say that baptism of water is needed by only ‘those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.’ A strawman argument?
Defacto (in reality, in actuality on earth in the present times)'The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." '
Dejure (in principle, in theory):' God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.'
Defacto God can save someone without us knowing the person saved and it would be known only to God. So this issue is a theory for us, something we accept in principle. We would not know any person on earth saved without the Sacraments.
So why mention it? The baptism of water it is said is defacto needed for all. This is also the dogmatic teaching on extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Does the Catechism imply that those saved without the Sacraments are defacto known to us and so are defacto exceptions to the dogma?
Dejure (in theory) . CCC 1258 ' The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament. '
Only God knows who has the baptism of desire and who was given the grace to really be a martyr. We cannot judge in general. Of course when the Church declares someone a martyr we accept it.
Since these cases are known only to God how can it be an issue with respect to outside the church there is no salvation? How does it contradict the centuries old ‘rigorist interpretation’ of extra ecclesiam nulla salus? It does not!
Dejure (in theory) CCC 1259:'For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament. '
Yes it is possible only in theory, in principle. Once again we do not know any such case on earth. Does the Catechism imply that these are defacto, known cases and so are exceptions to the dogma? This was the Richard Cushing Error.
CCC1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."'
Correct. Salvation is available for all (dejure, in principle) however to receive it one needs to defacto enter the Church. (Dominus Iesus 20). One needs Catholic Faith and the baptism of water. (AG 7, LG 14). Defacto one needs the baptism of water. (See above)
Dejure (in theory):'Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.'
Yes in principle (de jure) they can be saved and we do not know who they are in particular. Does the Catechism assume that we know these cases? This would mean that those who are saved in this category are visible and known to us for them to be exceptions. It would be implying that we could telephone or meet them on the street. This is not true.
Are these fundamental errors in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and just as corrections have been made in the past, corrections and clarifications are called for here?
The defacto-defacto reasoning of the Archbishop of Boston and the Jesuits is irrational.
No where does Vatican Council II claim that these ‘exceptions’ are defacto exceptions to the dogma outside the church there is no salvation or that they are the ordinary means of salvation.
-Lionel Andrades
Reference:
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."
VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
In the Catechism of the Catholic Church why did Cardial Joseph Ratzinger not mention that the baptism of desire is not a defacto exception to the dogma outside the church no salvation nor to Vatican Council II ?
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/01/in-catechism-of-catholic-church-why-did.html
The Archbishop of Boston Richard Cushing and the Jesuits there assumed that ‘those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ and his Church’ are defacto exceptions to the dogma. The dogma was interpreted for centuries as every one needs to defacto enter the Church and there are no known exceptions. This would mean defacto every one with no exception needs to enter the Catholic Church and there can also be defacto exceptions of some people who do not have to enter i.e. those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ and the his Church’ and yet are saved.
This is an error. Since we do not know anyone as mentioned in CCC 847. If we do not know anyone on earth as described above how can it be an exception to the dogma outside the church there is no salvation?
So why is CCC 847 placed under the sub section Outside the Church No Salvation?
It would be rational to say de facto everyone needs to enter the Church and de jure (in principle) we accept that some people can be saved in invincible ignorance and it would be known only to God. The defacto-dejure reasoning does not contradict the Principle of Non Contradiction.
Dejure (CCC 848) "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."
In principle (de jure) we know God can lead persons ‘who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him,’. Defacto in reality we do not know a single such case. So it is not a defacto exception to the dogmatic teaching that every one needs to convert into the Church. One can only choose to convert into the Church with the baptism of water and Catholic Faith.
Defacto (in reality, practically, explicitly) CCC1257 :The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.
Dejure (in principle) 'Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.'
The baptism of water is de facto necessary for all. (See above 1257).Since the Catechism implies (See above) that those ‘who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel,’ is defacto known to us, it is stated the baptism is necessary for only ‘those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.’ Baptism is not defacto necessary for those who ‘are ignorant of the Gospel’ etc.
Those who are ignorant of the Gospel are not known to us?!! There is no such known person on earth. We do not know anyone in particular who is saved in this category. So how can we say that baptism of water is needed by only ‘those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.’ A strawman argument?
Defacto (in reality, in actuality on earth in the present times)'The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." '
Dejure (in principle, in theory):' God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.'
Defacto God can save someone without us knowing the person saved and it would be known only to God. So this issue is a theory for us, something we accept in principle. We would not know any person on earth saved without the Sacraments.
So why mention it? The baptism of water it is said is defacto needed for all. This is also the dogmatic teaching on extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Does the Catechism imply that those saved without the Sacraments are defacto known to us and so are defacto exceptions to the dogma?
Dejure (in theory) . CCC 1258 ' The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament. '
Only God knows who has the baptism of desire and who was given the grace to really be a martyr. We cannot judge in general. Of course when the Church declares someone a martyr we accept it.
Since these cases are known only to God how can it be an issue with respect to outside the church there is no salvation? How does it contradict the centuries old ‘rigorist interpretation’ of extra ecclesiam nulla salus? It does not!
Dejure (in theory) CCC 1259:'For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament. '
CCC1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."'
Correct. Salvation is available for all (dejure, in principle) however to receive it one needs to defacto enter the Church. (Dominus Iesus 20). One needs Catholic Faith and the baptism of water. (AG 7, LG 14). Defacto one needs the baptism of water. (See above)
Dejure (in theory):'Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.'
Yes in principle (de jure) they can be saved and we do not know who they are in particular. Does the Catechism assume that we know these cases? This would mean that those who are saved in this category are visible and known to us for them to be exceptions. It would be implying that we could telephone or meet them on the street. This is not true.
Are these fundamental errors in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and just as corrections have been made in the past, corrections and clarifications are called for here?
The defacto-defacto reasoning of the Archbishop of Boston and the Jesuits is irrational.
No where does Vatican Council II claim that these ‘exceptions’ are defacto exceptions to the dogma outside the church there is no salvation or that they are the ordinary means of salvation.
-Lionel Andrades
Reference:
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."
VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
In the Catechism of the Catholic Church why did Cardial Joseph Ratzinger not mention that the baptism of desire is not a defacto exception to the dogma outside the church no salvation nor to Vatican Council II ?
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/01/in-catechism-of-catholic-church-why-did.html
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