If someone is in Heaven it is with the baptism of water.If someone is saved with implicit desire it does not exclude the baptism of water.However since we are dealing with possibilities, in rare cases, definitely not the ordinary means of salvation, I do not argue with someone who says God can save a person even without the Sacraments (CCC 1257),God being God.
In reality we proclaim that every one needs the baptism of water for salvation and there are no known exceptions. I cannot meet anyone who will be saved without the baptism of water.
The possibility of someone being saved with implicit desire, with or without the Sacraments, in some rare case known only to God, does not exclude the necessity of every one with no exception in 2012 needing the baptism of water for salvation.
If someone is saved without the Sacraments (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257 ‘God is not limited to the Sacraments’) and this person is saved ‘ in certain circumstances’ (Letter of the Holy Office 1949) still everyone on earth needs the baptism of water for salvation and there are no known exceptions.
That someone can be saved without the Sacraments,‘God is not limited to the Sacraments’(CCC 1257) is a possibility.It is cited in the Catechism as only a possibility known to God. It is not a reality that we know of on earth. So it does not contradict the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
CCC 1257 does not contradict Ad Gentes 7 which says all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation. CCC 1257 does not contradict itself when it says that the Church knows of no means to eternal beatitude other than the baptism of water. It does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.-Lionel Andrades
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Grave harm has been done from within the Church and from those outside the Church , during this Crisis of Faith in the last half century concerning Church teaching on Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance as possibilities for Salvation.
Those on earth must teach that there is No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church and everyone must receive Baptism by Water. We must also believe that since God is not bound by His Sacraments, there does exists the possibilities for Salvation by Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance as known and judged by God alone. We must recognize that the mercies of God are beyond our grasp and understanding. We willingly trust and pray for God's mercy, with the knowledge that there are no exceptions known to us on earth to correctly teach and explain our Faith. We have done incalculable damage to our faith by teaching, appeasing others and watering down the hard and fast teachings of the Church and words of Jesus. We must proclaim, teach and hold the position that there are no exceptions to No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church and that everyone must receive Baptism by Water.
Only God can judge when a person reaches the age of reason. This can vary from person to person depending on a host of factors beyond our ability to know, judge or comprehend. Only God can judge the possibility of Invincible Ignorance. Only God can grant Salvation. There are no exceptions known to us.
God is bound by His Word. He binds Himself. When He states that "Unless a man be born again by water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God", Jn 3:5. http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=50&ch=3&l=5#x who would dare to contradict Him? If God would lay down a law and then circumvent it, He would not be trustworthy. If there is a man of good will somewhere that God cannot reach with the saving waters of Baptism, then He is not omnipotent and omniscient. Baptism of desire as suffient for salvation denies the particular providence of God and is a grave sin of infidelity.
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God is bound by His Word. He binds Himself. When He states that "Unless a man be born again by water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God", Jn 3:5. http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=50&ch=3&l=5#x who would dare to contradict Him?
Lionel
In general every one needs the baptism of water for salvation.Catholic Faith and the baptism of water is the ordinary means of salvation for all.
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If God would lay down a law and then circumvent it, He would not be trustworthy
Lionel
He has not circumvented it. Every one in 2012 needs Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation.
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If there is a man of good will somewhere that God cannot reach with the saving waters of Baptism, then He is not omnipotent and omniscient.
Lionel:
Yes God can reach Him if God chooses to.He is omnipotent and omniscient.
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Baptism of desire as suffient for salvation denies the particular providence of God and is a grave sin of infidelity.
Lionel:
Implicit desire can be followed by the baptism of water this is a possibility in certain circumstances.It is known only to God.
Implicit desire without the baptism of water could be a possibility in certain circumstancs and would be known only to God.It's a possibility since God is God, omniscient and omnipotent.
We know cases of non Catholics who have returned from the dead to be baptised with water by the saints. God allowed them to die without the baptism of water but did not condemn them. God is omniscient.
These possibilities do not mean that every one on earth does not need the baptism of water for salvation or that there are any known exceptions of implicit desire etc.
Unless a man be born again: By these words our Saviour hath declared the necessity of baptism; and by the word water it is evident that the application of it is necessary with the words. Matt. 28. 19.
quotquot
God is bound by His Word. He binds Himself. When He states that "Unless a man be born again by water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God", Jn 3:5. http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=50&ch=3&l=5#x who would dare to contradict Him?
Lionel
In general every one needs the baptism of water for salvation.Catholic Faith and the baptism of water is the ordinary means of salvation for all.
quotquot
If God would lay down a law and then circumvent it, He would not be trustworthy
Lionel
He has not circumvented it. Every one in 2012 needs Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation.
quotquot
If there is a man of good will somewhere that God cannot reach with the saving waters of Baptism, then He is not omnipotent and omniscient.
Lionel:
Yes God can reach Him if God chooses to.He is omnipotent and omniscient.
quotquot:
Baptism of desire as suffient for salvation denies the particular providence of God and is a grave sin of infidelity.
Lionel:
Implicit desire can be followed by the baptism of water this is a possibility in certain circumstances.It is known only to God.
Implicit desire without the baptism of water could be a possibility in certain circumstancs and would be known only to God.It's a possibility since God is God, omniscient and omnipotent.
We know cases of non Catholics who have returned from the dead to be baptised with water by the saints. God allowed them to die without the baptism of water but did not condemn them. God is omniscient.
These possibilities do not mean that every one on earth does not need the baptism of water for salvation or that there are any known exceptions of implicit desire etc.
Unless a man be born again: By these words our Saviour hath declared the necessity of baptism; and by the word water it is evident that the application of it is necessary with the words. Matt. 28. 19.
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