Tuesday, March 20, 2012

Bishop Fellay, Fr.Schmidberger,FSSP,Joseph Fenton seem unaware the baptism of desire is not an explicit exception to the dogma

From Rorate Caeli comments on Who is a Traditionalist?

Ecclesia Militans said...
Brother André Marie,
I've studied the articles and I must say that they do not make a convincing argument against the threefold Baptism.


Lionel:
 it is important to note that there is only one baptism which is explicit. It is the baptism of water.

Ecclesia Militans
Other than quoting the many various forms of the dogma extra Ecclesiam nulla salus and discussions and speculations on St. Augustine's view, there are only two or three marginal quotes by doctors that speak against the threefold Baptism.


Lionel:
We can only accept the baptism of desire and martrydom in pinciple. Explicitly we do not know any case, we cannot judge.If the Church declares someone a martyr we accept it.


Ecclesia Militans
As for St. Emerentiana, I see that Fr. Feeney decided to deny Tradition by saying she must have been baptised in water before martyrdom, although she has always been counted as an unbaptized cathecumen who died for Christ and received the Baptism of Blood.

On the other hand, I present you a short list of those important documents, theologians, bishops and doctors that explicitly affirmed the threefold Baptism (most of the quotes are found in the article mentioned in my last comment, if you wish, I can send you the others by mail):


Lionel:
In this list it is important to note that none of them said that the baptism of desire and the baptism of blood were explicitly known to us or that we could judge these cases in general or that they were explicit exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.


Ecclesia Militans
St. Cyprian BM, Tertullian, St. Cyril of Jerusalem BCD, St. John Chrysostome BCD, St. Ambrose BCD, St. Augustine BCD, St. Thomas Aquinas CD, St. Catherine of Sienna V, Ecumenical Council of Trent, Catechism of the Council of Trent, St. Alphonsus Liguori BCD, Pope Pius IX, Baltimore Cathechism (19th century), The Cathechism Explained (1899), Cathechism of Pope St. Pius X, Catholic Encyclopedia (1913), Code of Canon Law (1917), Catholic Dictionary (1946), Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office (1949), mons.

Lionel:
They all were in agrement with Fr.Leonard Feeney.


Ecclesia Militans

Joseph Fenton (1952), Archbishop Lefebvre FSSPX, Fr. Schmidberger FSSPX, Bishop Fellay FSSPX...


Lionel:
 They seem unaware too that the baptism of desire etc are not defacto exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.


Ecclesia Militans

The inescapable conclusion is that the doctrine of Fr. Feeney denies or contradicts the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium as expressed through the above teachings of the said theologians, doctors etc.


Lionel:
 Fr.Leonrd Feeney said that there is only one baptism, the baptism of water . This is the only explicit baptism. For salvation all people need the baptism of water and there are no known exceptions.This is the teaching of the Magisterium as expressed through the above mentioned theologians, doctors etc.This is  the teaching  of the following:


St. Cyprian BM, Tertullian, St. Cyril of Jerusalem BCD, St. John Chrysostome BCD, St. Ambrose BCD, St. Augustine BCD, St. Thomas Aquinas CD, St. Catherine of Sienna V, Ecumenical Council of Trent, Catechism of the Council of Trent, St. Alphonsus Liguori BCD, Pope Pius IX, Baltimore Cathechism (19th century), The Cathechism Explained (1899), Cathechism of Pope St. Pius X, Catholic Encyclopedia (1913), Code of Canon Law (1917), Catholic Dictionary (1946), Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office (1949), mons.


Ecclesia Militans

It even goes against the Code of Canon Law which was valid at the time (canons 737 & 1239).


Lionel:
No magisterial document states that the baptism of desire etc are explicitly known to us or an exception to the dogma.

Ecclesia Militans

you can see that to assert that so many theologians, doctors, popes and Church documents were in error for so many centuries is to deny the indefectibility of the Church.St. Alphonsus Liguori calls the baptism of desire de fide,...


Lionel:
Yes it is de fide and accepted in principle. It cannot be known explicitly and so it does not contradict the dogma or Fr.Leonard Feeney.


Ecclesia Militans

and St. Cyprian BM, back in the 3rd century, seems to call those who do not believe in the Baptism of Blood of the cathecumens "aiders and favourers of heretics".


Lionel:
The baptism of blood is not an exception to the dogma.

Ecclesia Militans

In short and precise quote:


"Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.“


Lionel:
 Correct and we do not know any case of a non Catholic on earth who is saved in invincible ignorance or is going to be saved.

Ecclesia Militans

e Pius IX, SINGULARI QUIDEM
http://www.ewtn.com/library/encyc/p9singul.htm


Lionel:
No where does Pope Pius IX say that the baptism of desire etc are exceptions to the dogma or that they are explicit. On has to make this wrong assumption.The popes do not make this assumption.


20 January, 2012 23:34

-Lionel Andrades

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.it/2012/01/who-is-traditionalist.html

2 comments:

Anonymous said...

The Church has taught the three forms of baptism: flumen, flaminis, sanguinis.
see:
http://www.saintjamesrcc.org/faith-and-devotions/sacraments/baptism/item/substitutes-for-baptism

Catholic Mission said...

The link you have provided does not state that the baptism of desire and blood are visible to us.
Neither does it state that these cases are explicit and so are an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

This has to be implied.

Reason tells us that we cannot see any one saved with the baptism of desire and only God can judge who is a martyr.

So to imply that we can judge is false.

In principle we accept that there is the baptism of blood and desire however these cases are not visible and repeatable like the baptism of water.

Since we do not know these cases it is wrong to imply that they are exceptions to the dogma on salvation. There are no exceptions.