Wednesday, August 10, 2011

CATHOLIC PRIESTS IN ROME AGREE WITH FR.LEONARD FEENEY: THERE IS NO BAPTISM OF DESIRE THAT WE CAN KNOW OF


The Latin phrase Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus means: "Outside the Church there is no salvation". The most recent Catholic Catechism interpreted this to mean that "all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body."-Wikipedia

The Catechism CCC 846 also said all need to enter the Church as through a door. Extra ecclesiam nulla salus!


The Roman Catholic Church also teaches that the doctrine does not mean that everyone who is not visibly within the Church is necessarily damned.-Wikipedia
The Dogma Cantate Domino, Council of Florence says everyone who is not visibly in the Church is damned.

Here is Cantate Domino from Wikipedia itself.

Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."-Wikipedia, extra ecclesiam nulla salus (Emphasis added)
So acording to the dogma every non Catholic needs to be a visible member of the Catholic Church for salvation.

The dogma says every one needs to enter the Church while Wikipedia suggests the opposite.

Here is another error of the secular media.

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and His Church:

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation" (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, 16).-Wikipedia
Wikipedia implies that 'those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church...' can be saved and so they are exceptions to the 'rigorist interpretation' of the dogma.

Here are Catholic priests in Rome who say we do not know any case of someone saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire. So how can it contradict Cantate Domino and the centuries old teaching that every one needs to be a visible member of the Catholic Church for salvation.
 
WE DO NOT KNOW ANYONE SAVED WITH THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE OR INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE SO EVERYONE NEEDS TO ENTER THE CHURCH AS DON BOSCO TAUGHT- Salesian Rector and Parish priest in Rome

WE DONT KNOW ANYONE IN PARTICULAR SAVED BY THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE, BY JESUS AND THE CHURCH-Fr. Brian Crawford OSJ

VATICAN COUNCIL II AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE ON EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS- Fr. Davide Carbonaro

Its a mortal sin to deny the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. It is a sacrilege to receive the Eucharist in this condition- Fr. Gabrielle, priest of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate

THERE IS NO BAPTISM OF DESIRE THAT WE CAN KNOW OF- Fr.George Puthoor

THERE IS NO DE FACTO BAPTISM OF DESIRE THAT WE KNOW OF-Fr. Masimilliano dei Gaspari F. I

EVERYBODY NEEDS THE EUCHARIST TO GO TO HEAVEN - Fr.Marcos Renacia, Augustinian Recollect priest

MONS.IGNACIO BARREIRO CARAMBULA, INTERIM PRESIDENT,HUMAN LIFE INTERNATIONAL,USA SAYS "We don't know any case of the baptism of desire or invincible ignorance.Only Jesus can judge"

FR.TULLIO ROTONDO AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE ON EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

Then Wikipedia suggests that Fr.Leonard Feeney made an error regarding the baptism of desire and blood. 
Father Leonard Feeney (b. Lynn, Massachusetts February 18, 1897 - d. Ayer, Massachusetts January 30, 1978 )[1] was a U.S. Jesuit priest who defended the strict interpretation of the Roman Catholic doctrine, extra Ecclesiam nulla salus ("outside The Church there is no salvation"), arguing that baptism of blood and baptism of desire are unavailing and that therefore no non-Catholics will be saved. He fought against what he perceived to be the liberalization of Catholic doctrine.(emphasis added)
The Catholic priests have said that we do not know any case of the baptism of desire so how can it be an exception. So Fr.Leonard Feeney was also saying that there is no case known of the baptism of desire in particular cases so it does not contradict the dogma.

Unless the Church declares someone a martyr or a saint, we cannot say anyone in particular is a martyr; we cannot say that we can meet a person saved as a martyr and so he contradicts the need for everyone to be a visible member of the Church with no exception.

Wikipedia and the secular media continue with this false propaganda.
-Lionel Andrades
E-mail: lionelandrades10@gmail.com

Photo: Fr.Leonard Feeney with the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. The photo is from the website of the Sisters of St.Benedict Center.
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DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS NOT CONTRADICTED BY VATICAN COUNCIL II- Legionaries of Christ priest-formator in Rome

Fr. James Brooks L.C a member of the Legionaries of Christ seminary faculty in Rome last Sunday morning (Aug.7, 2011) said the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus was not contradicted by Vatican Council II. It was the teaching of the Church  that implicit baptism of desire cannot be explicitly known in particular cases he said . Fr. James is one of many priests in Rome who say there is no explicitly known implicit salvation. So Vatican Council II is not in contradiction with Tradition, the popes, Councils and the saints on the centuries-old interpretation of the dogma.

Fr. James, an American, he  was speaking with me at the seminary Pontifical International Maria Mater Ecclesia (PIMME) off Via Aurelia, Rome.

The normal, ordinary way for all people to receive salvation he said was the baptism of water. It was possible for a non Catholic to be saved with the baptism of desire, he observed, and this would be known only to God. We would not know any such case.

This would mean, it may be mentioned, that if Fr. Leonard Feeney of Boston said there is no known de facto (explicitly known) or de jure (accepted in principle) baptism of desire he would be correct. We would not know any particular case in Boston so it would not contradict the dogma. Cantate Domino, Council of Florence indicates every non Catholic in Boston, and the rest of the USA, needs to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation.Fr.James is also saying that we personally do not know any such case.

Fr. James is one of the priests at PIMME in charge of the religious formation of diocesan seminarians from all over the world. The Legionaries of Christ have a separate seminary near their university (UPRA) for seminarians of their religious community.

The Legionaries of Christ seminarians and those at PIMME are exposed to a book in the library of UPRA titled, ‘No Salvation outside the Church’ by Francis Sullivan S.J which is critical of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Sullivan considers the dogma only relevant for the time it was issued. He does not mention that the dogma was defined by three popes, along with bishops and cardinals, in three different Councils. Sullivan also misinterpreted Vatican Council II and his book was written before Redemptoris Missio and Dominus Iesus which contradicted him.

The seminarians at PIMME can also read at UPRA a book by Fr. Hans Kung which says Vatican Council II has contradicted the thrice-defined dogma. Kung assumes those in invincible ignorance (LG 16) are explicitly known to us. He then builds upon this error, of explicitly known implicit salvation and claims Vatican Council II has ended the infallibility of the popes ex cathedra i.e. Lumen Gentium 16 contradicts the ex cathedra dogma, which Pope Pius XII called an ‘infallible teaching’(Letter of the Holy Office 1949).

At PIMME it is still taught that Fr. Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for heresy and those saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance are known to us, in particular.

Yet Fr. James is saying that implicit cases (baptism of desire, a good conscience, in partial communion with the church, etc) are known only to God. So they would not contradict the dogma.

Defacto, for salvation, everyone needs the baptism of water, given to adults with Catholic Faith (Ad Gentes 7). So Protestants and Orthodox Christians would also need Catholic Faith- and there are no exceptions.

De jure (in principle) a non Catholic can be saved with the baptism of desire etc and we can only accept it as a possibility since it would only be known to God.

So this defacto-dejure analysis does not contradict the Principle of Non Contradiction taught to PIMME seminarians at the Regina Apostolorum University (UPRA).

When Fr. Hans Kung implies de facto we know particular cases of non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance it contradicts the dogma which says everyone with no exception needs to be a defacto, explicit member of the Church.

This de facto-defacto analysis is contrary to the Principle of Non Contradiction.

I was a seminarian at PIMME in August 2002 the first time I came to Rome, and there was no concept of Catholic Mission along with the dogma and Vatican Council II, at PIMME.

Fr. James Brooks a Legionaries of Christ priest was clearly affirming the dogma and Vatican Council II, denying explicitly known baptism of desire and affirming an implicit baptism of desire known only to God.
-Lionel Andrades
E-mail:lionelandrades10@gmail.com

Photos(top) formators at PIMME from Maria Mater Ecclesia 20th Anniversary (below) view of the seminary.
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