Tuesday, August 2, 2011

IF YOU CRITICIZE FR.LEONARD FEENEY KNOW YOU ARE ALSO CRITICIZING THE MAGISTERIUM OF THE CHURCH

Jim says:
Again, your language seems to imply that if one does not receive Baptism and profess explicitly the Catholic faith and thus be a formal member of the visible Church—he cannot be saved.
Lionel: Correct. Every one on earth needs the baptism of water and Catholic Faith for salvation.

Jim says: There can be NO EXCEPTION TO THIS, you say.
Lionel: De facto (in reality) there can be no exception to this among the people I meet, among the people on earth in general.

This must not be confused with those saved implicitly by Jesus and who are known only to God. We cannot meet anyone on earth who is saved implicitly and whom we will know.
Hence there is no exception to everyone being a formal, explicit member of the Church for salvation.

Jim: That excludes the baptism of desire, which is also rendered meaningless by your stress on “IF”.
Lionel: The baptism of desire is meaningless if you consider it de facto, explicitly known in the present times and judge able. In its very nature it can only be accepted in principle and as a concept. It is de facto known only to God. When it is a reality it is known only to God. You cannot meet a person on the street saved with the baptism of desire.

Jim:
It is one thing to say that all are called to be Catholic, to have faith, baptism, and profess the Catholic faith, and that non-Catholics of various categories CAN BE SAVED; it is another to say “If anyone is saved with the baptism of desire”, leaving open the possibility that really NO ONE IS SAVED by that means.
Lionel: For us humans the baptism of desire is just a possibility, something acceptable. It is God who decides if someone is saved with the baptism of desire. I cannot say either way, that there were a certain number of baptisms of desire in Rome last month or there were none.

Jim: Your language remains quite confusing, and lacks the clarity and coherence of Vatican II teaching. You try to defend it, but only muddle it further.
Lionel: It is important to note that the baptism of desire and all ‘implicit faith’ is known to God only and unknown to us in particular and this cannot be in conflict with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus which says everyone on earth needs to be an explicit member of the Church for salvation.

We could then realize that Vatican Council II supports the dogma, Fr. Leonard Feeney, popes and saints. We could also realize that the interpretation many Catholics are using on this issue comes from the secular media, with no text to support their position from Vatican Council II or the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Jim: I gather that you are indeed a follower of Fr. Feeney’s views.
Lionel:
It depends what you mean by Feeneyism ?!
Fr. Leonard Feeney affirmed the dogma Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441 which indicated all non Catholics in Boston need to enter the Church formally for salvation.He also said that there was no baptism of desire (known to us).
I do not know what else do you mean by Feeneyism.

Jim : I still find your views confusing.
Please clarify. How do they differ from Feeneyism?

It depends on what do you mean by Fr. Feeney's views. I have not read all his books and do not agree with him on everything. I have not come to this issue through any of his communities neither have I been influenced by their websites.

I agree with the dogma Cantate Domino and so does Fr. Leonard Feeney but then so do numerous saints and popes.

I agree that every one with no exception needs to enter the Church and that we do not know any case of a person saved implicitly (baptism of desire etc).This too is in accord with the dogma, Vatican Council II and other Magisterial teachings.

If you criticze Fr. Leonard Feeny for holding to these positions, as do the Jewish Left media and as the leftists liberals do , then know also that you are criticizing the teaching of the Magisterium of the Church according to the Magisterial texts (CCC 846, Dominus Iesus 29, Ad Gentes 7 etc).

- Lionel Andrades