I've received an e-mail from Jim today in response to the last post on this blog. It's always nice to hear from him.He makes the time to respond to e-mails.
Jim says:
“Everyone on earth with no exception needs Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation”.(Andrades)
Lionel : Everyone needs to explicitly enter the Church with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water ( Cantate Domino, Council of Florence, Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II etc) and this does not rule out the possibility of non Catholics being saved implicitly through Jesus and the Church. The Catechism of the Caholic Church 846 says every one needs to enter the Church as 'through a door' and there could be non Catholics saved implicitly 'through Jesus and the Church'.
Jim: Then how explain since you rule out completely the notion of “IMPLIICT FAITH” :
1) the just of the Old Testament who were saved- patriarchs and prophets and Sts. Joachim and Anne whose Feast is today.
Lionel: They were saved by Jesus and the Church. They could only go to Heaven after the Resurrection.They had to wait for the coming of the Promised Jewish Messiah.
Jim: 2) the just pagans in good conscience who observed the Natural MORAL LAW as best they could and whom the Fathers of the Church certainly believed were saved.
Lionel: Yes, we accept in principle that they were saved. However we do not know any specific case in the present times of such people saved.So it does not contradict the dogma that everyone needs to enter the Church.
Jim: 3) the non-Catholic martyrs (Rusian and Greek Orthodox) who died for Christ and were not visible members of the Catholic Church.
Lionel: If there were any such cases it would only be known to Jesus. In general the Orthodox Christians who are not members of the Catholic Church need to enter the Catholic Church for salvation.(Cantate Domino, Ad Gentes 7,Dominus Iesus 20 etc)
Jim: You pose a false problem. It is not necessary to know a specific non-Catholic who has been saved to uphold the truth of Nulla Salus Extra Ecclesiam.
Lionel: Jim, we do not know a specific non-Catholic saved; we do not know anyone in particular saved through implicit faith, while the dogma says all need to enter the Catholic Church for salvation.
Jim: It suffices to know that non-Catholics of every category IN PRINCIPLE can be saved (for Christ indeed died for all)
Lionel: Correct, in principle they can be saved if they convert, in general they can be saved when they enter the Catholic Church before they die.However they need to enter the Church for salvation (Dominus Iesus 20)
Jim: and those who are so saved are saved because of their baptism and other sacramental bonds joining them to the Church (Eastern dissidents and Protestants)
Lionel: Those who are saved,in general are saved through Jesus and the Church, through the Sacraments of the Church, the Church being the Mystical Body of Jesus.They are saved through explicitly belonging to the Catholic Church. Then of course they would not be Protestants or Orthodox Christians.
Jim: or by the mysterious adherence by implicit faith and good works to Christ and His Church (pagans, Muslims, Jews).
Lionel: In principle we agree that there could be non Catholics saved by the baptism of desire, in invincible ignorance or a good conscience etc ('implicit faith') and this could happen 'in certain circumstances' (Letter of the Holy Office 1949) it is not the 'ordinary way', which is the Catholic Church (Redemptoris Missio 55 ). De facto, we do not know any such case in particular. So it is not an exception to Cantate Domino which says everyone needs to enter the Church, as a visible member of the Church.
In Christ
Lionel
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