Friday, February 25, 2011

THE DOGMA SAYS EVERYONE WITH NO EXCEPTION NEEDS TO ENTER THE CHURCH

Jim says:
You admit that non-Catholics can be saved, even those who have never heard of Christ and His Church.

Lionel: Yes this is a possibility. Something we accept in principle only. It’s a concept.

De facto we do not know any case. In reality you admit that you do not know any particular case.

So do not mix the two be precise in your language please.

Jim says:
On the other hand, you insist that a non-Catholic must be a formal and explicit member of the Catholic Church to be saved.

Lionel: Again does not mix the two be precise in your language please.

De facto we do not know a single case of someone saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance in the present times. So it is irrational to claim it.

Secondly the ex cathedra dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus says that every one with no exception needs to be a formal member of the Church for salvation. Invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are not mentioned. Obviously since they are known only to God.

Jim says:
How is it possible for someone who has never heard of Christ and His Church to KNOW he must be a formal and explicit member of the Church to be saved?????

Lionel: If someone who has not heard of Christ and His Church is saved it could be because God has sent someone to provide the helps he needs. This was what St.Thomas Aquinas taught.

Jim:
This makes no sense. It is simply false and a distortion of Nulla Salvus Extra Ecclesiam to insist, as you do, that “Everyone WITH NO EXCEPTION in the present times needs to formally enter the Church to be saved”.

Lionel:

1. “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215). Ex cathedra.

2.“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.).Ex cathedra.

3.“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.) Ex cathedra – from the website Catholicism.org (Emphasis added)
The dogma says everyone with no exception needs to enter the Church.

Jim:
That is not what the Catholic Church teaches.

Lionel:
Please read the text of the dogma for yourself.

This has been the teaching for centuries until a change was made in the 1950’s when the Archbishop of Boston Cardinal Richard Cushing claimed that we can know cases of invincible ignorance etc in the present times and so this contradicted the dogma and Fr. Leonard Feeney.

Jim:
It does teach that some relation or being joined to the Church by grace may result in the salvation of souls who are not aware of the teaching of Christ on formal membership.

Lionel:
So we do not have a problem with this. If someone is saved in this exceptional way, fine. It does not contradict the dogma or Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II that every one needs Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation.

Jim:
It is not necessary to know what specific persons are in that category;

Lionel:
True. And we can never know.

Jim:
it is the truth that they CAN BE SAVED which is essential for the Church

Lionel:
True in principle we agree.

Jim:
to teach its faithful without denying that the salvation of non-Catholics is due to fullness of grace found in the Catholic Church to which they invisibly adhere.

Lionel:
True they are saved by Jesus and the Church. They are saved implicitly and are known only to God. They are saved ‘in certain circumstances’ (Letter of the Holy Office 1949). So please do not use this teaching to assume that every one on earth in the present times needs Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation (to avoid Hell).(Ad Gentes 7, Cantate Domino, Dominus Iesus 20 etc).Since they are implicit cases we do not know who they are.

Jim:
Moreover, how can you KNOW that a non-Catholic who has never heard of Christ is condemned to Hell? How can you KNOW that he will die in mortal sin?

Lionel:
If there is a non Catholic who has never heard of Christ who is saved then he is saved! If he is saved he will not go to Hell.