Tuesday, February 15, 2011

'You quote Magisterial documents stating that no man is excluded from salvation and then you declare that one must be a formal explicit member of the Catholic Church to be saved!'

Jim: There you go again, such astounding disingenuousness in distorting the traditional axiom: Nulla salus extra Ecclesiam. You quote Magisterial documents stating that no man is excluded from salvation and then you declare that one must be a formal explicit member of the Catholic Church to be saved!

Lionel: Please read Dominus Iesus 20.It says salvation is universal, open to all BUT to receive this salvation one needs to enter the Church.

Jim: Then you opine that no one can know that any particular non-Catholic person can be in heaven, but declare with certainty that Mohammed is in Hell. Really, you seem to know much more than the Catholic Church itself.

Lionel: We know for sure that some sins lead to Hell. Some sins orient a person to Hell.

The Bible tells us that some sins will prevent people from seeing the Kingdom of God. So we know Mohammad and other Muslims are oriented to Hell.

We also have the teaching of the Church's Magisterium indicating the same. (Cantate Domino, Ad Gentes 7 etc)

Jim : Please answer:

If I say YES, there are those in Heaven now who never heard of Christ and His Church and its teachings, would that be the same as you saying: “Yes, this is what we believe IN PRINCIPLE” ???

Lionel. Yes this is what we believe in principle (theoretically).
There can be people who we believe are not members of the Church and they can be in Heaven. God would send a preacher to tell them about the Faith or have them baptized with water. Some could return from the dead to be baptized with water as has been the experience of many saints who have administered water baptism to those returning from the dead. In Heaven there are only Catholics.

Jim :
Only theoretically?

One is obliged to ask further : “Are there actually in heaven among the saints those who never had knowledge of Christ and His teachings?”

Lionel : Yes! This is what we believe in principle.There can be such people. However St.Thomas Aquinas says that God will provide the necessary helps so that they are Catholics before they die.

In principle, theoretically he can be saved. This is a possibility the Church has always accepted.

But the Church does not claim to know such people in real life. Not even one case. So please do not assume that someone is in this category this month.
The question is : is there one person this month in Heaven who never had knowledge of Christ and His teachings? You have not said Yes.

APOLOGIST ASKS ON WHAT PAGE DID POPE BENEDICT XVI SAY THAT JEWS DO NOT NEED TO CONVERT TO CATHOLICISM IN THE PRESENT TIMES?

An apologist asks:


Lionel,

What page does B16 say that the Jews do not need to convert to Catholicism in the present times?
Dear (Name of Apologist),

Praised be Jesus and Our Lady.

I have put through the following from reports on my blog on this subject about five weeks back.

It’s all in the theology.

Also see the background statements of Cardinal Bertone and Bagnasco. At that time the pope allowed it to appear as if it was done by the cardinals and did not have his approval.

Now for the first time in writing it is clear in Light of the World.

1. He approved the article written on the front page of the L’Osservatore Romano by Cardinal Kaspar and sent to the Chief Rabbinate of Israel. The message was Jews do not have to convert in the present times. Also that this was allegedly indicated by Vatican Council II.

2. He approved the meeting of Cardinal Bagnasco with the two Rabbis when Bagnasco issued a directive of the Conference of Catholic Bishops saying that Jews do not have to convert in the present times. Bagnasco claimed that it had the support of the Pope.

3. He approved Cardinal Bertone’s claim to the Chief Rabbinate through that Letter that we had a belief in Jesus, that was about all . And that the Chief Rabbinate had read the article by Cardinal Kaspar which said Jews do not have to convert in the present times.

So it is all in the background.

In Christ

Lionel

Judaism
I must say that from the first day of my theological studies, the profound unity between the Old and New Testament, between the two parts of our Sacred Scripture, was somehow clear to me. I had realized that we could read the New Testament only together with what had preceded it, otherwise we would not understand it. Then naturally what happened in the Third Reich struck us as Germans, and drove us all the more to look at the people of Israel with humility, shame, and love.

In my theological formation, these things were interwoven, and marked the pathway of my theological thought. So it was clear to me – and here again in absolute continuity with John Paul II – that in my proclamation of the Christian faith there had to be a central place for this new interweaving, with love and understanding, of Israel and the Church, based on respect for each one’s way of being and respective mission[. . .]

A change also seemed necessary to me in the ancient liturgy. In fact, the formula was such as to truly wound the Jews, and it certainly did not express in a positive way the great, profound unity between Old and New Testament. For this reason, I thought that a modification was necessary in the ancient liturgy, in particular in reference to our relationship with our Jewish friends. I modified it in such a way that it contained our faith, that Christ is salvation for all. That there do not exist two ways of salvation, and that therefore Christ is also the savior of the Jews, and not only of the pagans. But also in such a way that one did not pray directly for the conversion of the Jews in a missionary sense, but that the Lord might hasten the historic hour in which we will all be united. For this reason, the arguments used polemically against me by a series of theologians are rash, and do not do justice to what was done. - Benedict XVI, “Light of the World: The Pope, the Church, and the Signs of the Times”, Ignatius Press, 2010. (From the website La Chiesa) (Emphasis added)
Pope Benedict XVI states above that he revised the Good Friday Prayer ‘in such a way that it contained our faith, that Christ is salvation for all.’ (This of course does not say that all Jews are on the path to Hell unless they convert as the Church has taught.) The pope says ‘that there do not exist two ways of salvation’(This is bad theology. It is from a man once known as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger . He indicates there is only one way of salvation and Jews are saved in general through this one way; Christ and the Church, and so they do not have to convert. This is an evil doctrine. It is a falsehood. It denies an ex cathedra dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the Bible ) The pope continues ‘and that therefore Christ is also the saviour of the Jews, and not only of the pagans ‘( Theologically this is saying nothing.Christ is the Saviour of the Jews and pagans and they are saved, even if they do not enter the Catholic Church?).

Similarly on Sept.22,2009 Cardinal Bagnasco President of the Conference of Catholic Bishops of Italy (CEI) issued a directive before two liberal Rabbis in his office, stating that the Revised Good Friday Prayer for the Conversion of the Jews was not for their conversion and that Jews do not have to convert in the present times.

Cardinal Tarcisco Bertone, Vatican, Secretary of State has also denied the ex-cathedra dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. In a front page article in the L’Osservatore Romano (April 10, 2008) a statement was issued to the Chief Rabbinate of Israel to prevent war and to resume dialogue. The report said that Jews in the present times do not have to convert.

Letter of Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone on the Revised Good Friday Prayer for the Conversion of the Jews.

Bertone, Tarcisio
Città del Vaticano, 2008/05/14
Mr Oded Wiener
Director-General of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel
Beit Yahav
80 Yirmiyahu StreetP.O. Box 36016Jerusalem

Dear Sir,

I write with reference to the Statement issued by the Chief Rabbinate of Israel in response to the publication of the Note of 4 February 2008, altering the Oremus et pro Iudaeis prayer in the 1962 edition of the Missale Romanum.

In this regard, I would point out that – by means of the "Communiqué of the Secretariat of State" which appeared in the daily edition of L'Osservatore Romano on 5 April 2008, and subsequently in the weekly language editions of the same publication – the Holy See has clearly emphasized the Catholic Church's firm commitment, especially in the wake of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, to promote and develop relations with the Jews through dialogue marked by profound respect, sincere esteem and cordial friendship. This commitment remains unchanged, especially in view of the spiritual links that exist between Jews and Christians.

As you have observed, particular prominence has also been given to a substantial and detailed article on the subject by Cardinal Walter Kasper, President of the Commission for Religious Relations with Judaism. This article appeared on the front page of L'Osservatore Romano on 10 April 2008, as a sign of the importance attributed to the text and the fact that what it says about the new version of the Prayer for the Jews in the 1962 edition of the Roman Missal is commonly held. Among other things, the Cardinal emphasized that a sincere dialogue between Jews and Christians is possible, on the one hand, on the basis of our common faith in the one God, Creator of heaven and earth, and in the promises made to Abraham, but on the other hand, through respectfully acknowledging the fundamental difference over faith in Jesus as Christ and Redeemer of all mankind. As Cardinal Kasper clearly explains, the new Oremus et pro Iudaeis is not intended to promote proselytism towards the Jews and it opens up an eschatological perspective. Christians, however, cannot but bear witness to their faith, in full and total respect for the freedom of others, and this leads them also to pray that all will come to recognize Christ.

Likewise, on his recent visit to the United States of America, the Holy Father gave a number of indications of his sentiments towards the Jews. Indeed, after meeting the representatives of various religions, the Pope particularly wanted to receive a group of Jewish religious leaders in order to hand over to them a special Message on the occasion of the great feast of Pesah, devoted to celebrating the great marvels that Almighty God has worked for his people.

In New York, His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI visited a synagogue in order to meet personally a Jewish community whose Rabbi was a survivor from the Nazi extermination camps. He wanted to manifest his sympathy, affection and closeness to the Jewish people, and to demonstrate, through a tangible and special gesture, the Holy See's commitment to respectful and loving dialogue, which leads to ever deeper relations of friendship and understanding.

In the hope that this letter may serve to dispel any remaining doubt on the part of the Chief Rabbinate over the Catholic Church's stance towards the Jewish people and over the intentions behind the alteration of the Oremus et pro Iudaeis of the 1962 Missale Romanum, I remain

Yours sincerely,

Tarcisio Card. Bertone
Secretary of State
____________________________________________

FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 4, 2011



DOES THE POPE REALLY SAY IN LIGHT OF THE WORLD THAT JEWS DO NOT HAVE TO CONVERT IN THE PRESENT TIMES ?


http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/02/does-pope-really-say-in-light-of-world.html