After years of bring conditioned that there is a rigorist interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus he is not sure he believes or disbelieves that the Catholic Magisterium teaches the rigorist position of the dogma.
Since he has no answers, he has blocked all further questions and comments.
Here are questions and comments based on his post and here are the answers.
1. The blog seeks a middle ground, since it is held that the Church does not teach that everyone needs to be a visible member of the Catholic Church to avoid Hell.
Answer: The Church Councils, popes and saints for centuries taught that everyone with no exception needs to be a visible member member of the Church. There was no middle ground.
2. This was the teaching of the past but not anymore?
Answer : How can an ex cathdra dogma be superseded by a Church Document ? It is infallible and there for all time.
Also when we pray the Athanasius Creed we say outside the church there is no salvation. It begins , 'Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith…' . It concludes,'This is the Catholic Faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.'
3. The dogma does not say that everyone needs to be a visible member of the Catholic Church.
Answer : Here is the ex cathedra dogma:
The ex cathedra teaching says everyone needs to be a visible member of the Catholic Church.1. “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215). Ex cathedra.
2.“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.).Ex cathedra.
3.“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.) Ex cathedra – from the website Catholicism.org and “No Salvation outside the Church”: Link List, the Three Dogmatic Statements Regarding EENS http://nosalvationoutsideofthecatholicchurch.blogspot.com/
4. Australia Incognita writes...it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 302.). Ex Cathedra
...none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation…...No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” - (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.) Ex Cathedra
Answer : To claim that Feeneyism denies the Baptism of desire as a concept is a falsehood.Feeneyism is another popular heresy on the extreme traditionalist side of the ledger. It is a heresy not least because it denies the notion of 'baptism of desire' (those who die before baptism but with a desire to receive it) and 'baptism of blood' (martyrdom for the faith on the part of the unbaptised).
To claim that there is a de facto or de jure baptism of desire is irrational.
To claim that the Baptism of desire is as explicit as the Baptism of water is irrational and contradicts the ex cathedra infallible teaching that everyone needs to be a visible member of the Catholic church.
In The Bread of Life, Fr.Leonard Feeney referred to the Baptism of Desire in the case of the catechuman, as a concept.The Saint Benedict Centre. teh community which he founded, has a definition of the Baptism of desire. They call it a definition on their website, so it is a concept.So as a concept they do not reject the Baptism of desire.
So when the blog says Fr.Leonard Feeney rejected the Baptism of Desire what does he mean? Does he mean Fr.Feeney rejected it de facto (explicitly) or that he rejected it as a concept(de jure)?.
5.Heresy?
Answer : Australia Incognita claims that Fr.Leonard Feeney and those who support him like me, deny the Baptism of Desire.
Here is the definition of the Baptism of desire from the website Catholicism.org. The Baptism of Desire is not denied as a concept.
5.
Regarding baptism of desire:
No Pope, Council, or theologian says that baptism of desire is a sacrament.
Likewise no Pope, Council, or theologian says that baptism of desire incorporates one into the Catholic Church.
Question: Without contradicting the thrice defined Dogma, “No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church”, and the infallible teaching of the Council of Trent, how can one define the expression baptism of desire?
Answer: The following definition of baptism of desire can be made which will be totally consistent with the infallible teaching of the Council of Trent and with the thrice defined dogma of “No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church”. This definition of baptism of desire goes as follows:
In its proper meaning, this consists of an act of perfect contrition or perfect love [that is Charity, which necessarily implies that one has the True Faith], and the simultaneous desire for baptism. It does not imprint an indelible character on the soul and the obligation to receive Baptism by water remains. (From page 126 of The Catholic Concise Encyclopedia , by Robert Broderick, M.A., copyright 1957, Imprimatur by Francis Cardinal Spellman, Archbishop of New York, August 31, 1956) (Emphasis mine)- Desire, Justification, and Salvation at the Council of Trent, by Br. David Mary, M.I.C.M., Tert. May 02nd, 2005
So it cannot really be said that we reject the Baptism of desire as a concept.
In more precise language we can say there is no explicit baptism of desire that we know of. So it is irrational for Australia Incognita to suggest that the baptism of desire is explicit.
Secondly if he suggests that there is an explicit baptism of desire (which Fr.Feeney denies allegedly ) then it is heresy on his part since he is denying an ex cathedra dogma which says everyone needs to be a visible member of the Church with no exception.
6. Australia Incognita cites the idea that
"the pagans to whom the Gospel is not proclaimed, if they follow the dictates of natural justice and try to seek God with sincerity, will go to the beatific vision" as an example of an error that they claim has long been condemned,...Answer:This passage is no problem for the traditionalists.
Supporters of Fr.Leonard Feeney agree that as a concept there could be people with perfect contrition, perfect love and the desire for the baptism of water. God will provide the help they need.
Answer: The following definition of baptism of desire can be made which will be totally consistent with the infallible teaching of the Council of Trent and with the thrice defined dogma of “No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church”. This definition of baptism of desire goes as follows:However they recognize that implicit Baptism of Desire can never be known explicitly nor be repeated like the Baptism of water, it is a grace from God. So it does not contradict the infallible teaching which says everyone with no exception needs to be a visible member of the Catholic Church to avoid Hell.
In its proper meaning, this consists of an act of perfect contrition or perfect love [that is Charity, which necessarily implies that one has the True Faith], and the simultaneous desire for baptism. It does not imprint an indelible character on the soul and the obligation to receive Baptism by water remains. (From page 126 of The Catholic Concise Encyclopedia , by Robert Broderick, M.A., copyright 1957, Imprimatur by Francis Cardinal Spellman, Archbishop of New York, August 31, 1956) (Emphasis mine)- Desire, Justification, and Salvation at the Council of Trent, by Br. David Mary, M.I.C.M., Tert. May 02nd, 2005,website Catholicism.org, Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, St.Benedict Center,NH
7. The writer asks if the Catechism opposes the dogma.
"Since Christ died for the salvation of all, those can be saved without Baptism... all those who, even without knowing Christ and the Church, still (under the impulse of grace) sincerely seek God and strive to do his will can also be saved without Baptism (Baptism of Desire)...."
Is the CCC's position reconcilable with tradition on this subject?
In fact I think it is.
Answer : No it is not, unless, you misinterpret the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Christ died for the salvation of all people but to receive this salvation all people need to enter the Catholic Church to avoid Hell (Dominus Iesus 20 etc). Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7) and the Catechism of the Catholic Church say all people need to enter the Catholic Church for salvation.
Pope Pius XII tells us that only in ‘certain circumstances’ (Letter of the Holy Office 1949) and so only known to God, can a person be saved with implicit desire and longing etc. So this is not the general norm. The ordinary means of salvation is Catholic Faith and the Baptism of water.
All men are certainly called to this Catholic unity. The Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ and all mankind belong to or are ordered to Catholic unity.-CCC 836
The Father wants to reunite all humanity into his Son's Church. According to St. Augustine and St. Ambrose, the Church was prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saved the world from the flood.-CCC 845
Pope Pius XII tells us that only in ‘certain circumstances’ (Letter of the Holy Office 1949) and so only known to God, can a person be saved with implicit desire and longing etc. So this is not the general norm. The ordinary means of salvation is Catholic Faith and the Baptism of water.
So if we suggest that being saved with the baptism of water etc is the ordinary means of salvation then we misinterpret the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
It is contrary to logic since we cannot give anyone the Baptism of desire and neither do we know who has genuine invincible ignorance.
It is also heresy since it contradicts the ex cathedra dogma which says everyone needs to be a visible member of the Catholic Church.
It would also mean that the Catechism denies the dogma of the infallibility of the pope ex cathedra.
In fact CCC 845 affirms the dogma and tradition.
N.845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.-Catechism of the Catholic Church n.845
8. The Baltimore Catechism contradicts the dogma.
10.Can the Baptism of desire be entirely implicit?
Answer : Whatever be the requirements for a person to have a baptism of desire acceptable to God, it is unknown to us. So it is always implicit for us.
When can the Baptism of Desire ever be explicit for us?
11. Can Muslisms be saved.
Related points:
What does the Magisterium of the Catholic Church teach today?
The Magisterium teaches that everyone with no exception needs to explicitly enter the Catholic Church through Catholic Faith and the Baptism of water to go to Heaven and avoid Hell (Ex cathedra extra ecclesiam nulla salus, Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II, Catechism of the Catholic Church n.836, Dominus Iesus 20 etc).LG 16 refers to those saved implicitly and not explicitly. Those with the baptism of desire, genuine invincible ignorance and a good conscience are known to God only. They are always implicit and subjective cases.There are no de facto cases of baptism of desire that we know of.
Only those who know about the Catholic Church and do not enter will go to Hell ?
They will definitely go to Hell according to Ad Gentes 7,Vatican Council II. However all non Catholics are oriented to Hell unless they explicitly convert into the Catholic Church.If there are any among them any who are in invincible ignorance etc it will known only to God.
The Holy Spirit is also present in non-Catholic religions?
Yes, in only the good and holy things. There are also ‘errors, deficiencies and superstition’(Dominus Iesus) in these religions where the Holy Spirit cannot be present.Whatever good is found in these religions are a preparation for the Gospel, the members of these religions are oriented towards the Catholic Church and are all called to be members(Notification,Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith relative to Fr. Jacques Dupuis S.J , 2001).
Fr.Leonard Feeney was excommunicted for heresy?
There is no Church Document which says Fr.Leonard Feeney of Boston was excommunicated for heresy. He was excommunicated for indiscipline. He did not go to Rome to defend himself.Assuming he was excommunicated for heresy the ordinary Magisterium of a pope or a cardinal's statement does not supersede an infallible teaching, in this case thrice defined.
WIKIPEDIA CONTINUES LIES ON CATHOLIC TEACHING AND CATHOLICS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2010/06/wikipedia-continues-lies-on-catholic.html#links
WIKIPEDIA CONTINUES LIES ABOUT CATHOLIC TEACHING AND CATHOLICS-2
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2010/06/wikipedia-continues-lies-about-catholic.html#links
CATHOLICS NEED TO CAMPAIGN AGAINST WIKIPEDIA
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2010/06/catholics-need-to-campaign-against.html#links
ROBERT KENNEDY ASKED RICHARD CUSHING TO SUPPRESS FR.LEONARD FEENEY
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2010/07/robert-kennedy-asked-richard-cushing-to.html#links
HOW IS THE SSPX IN HERESY? : FORUM ASKS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2010/07/how-is-sspx-in-heresy-forum-asks.html
eBAY SELLS PRODUCT WITH FALSE INFORMATION
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2010/07/ebay-sells-product-with-false.html
-Lionel Andrades
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2010/07/blog-australia-incognita-hit-by-basic.html
http://australiaincognita.blogspot.com/2010/07/who-then-can-be-daved-traditionalist.html
And fully traditional texts such as the Baltimore Catechism go so far as to allow that those who through their own grave fault do not know that the Catholic Church is the true Church can in fact be saved.
Answer : The Baltimore Catechism does not claim that this is the ordinary way of salvation.
It does not claim that this is an explicit, repeatable means of salvation like the Baptism of water.
It does not claim that we know anyone in particular who is in this condition and was saved.
Neither does it claim that we know or can know any one in principle in this condition who was saved or can be saved.
Neither is it said that these cases contradict the infallible teaching that everyone needs to be a visible member of the Catholic Church to avoid Hell.
If such claims are made then it is heresy and not the teaching of the Catholic Church.
9.There is confusion on this subject.
Answer: It is a subject on which one can ‘get a good handle on’ if you do not deny that the dogma says that everyone with no exception needs to be a visible member of the Catholic Church to avoid Hell. This is defined.And one that it is difficult to get a good handle on because it is one of those areas of theology where there have been relatively few dogmatic teachings defined, and thus there is a large area for legitimate theological debate.
10.Can the Baptism of desire be entirely implicit?
what constitutes baptism of desire - how explicit a knowledge of God, the Church and the faith, for example, is required, or can it be entirely implicit?
Answer : Whatever be the requirements for a person to have a baptism of desire acceptable to God, it is unknown to us. So it is always implicit for us.
When can the Baptism of Desire ever be explicit for us?
11. Can Muslisms be saved.
A sub-set of this debate goes to the question of whether the Islamic God is the same as as the Christian God - and hence whether Muslims can be saved...Answer:The dogma says Muslims need to enter the Catholic Church for salvation. So we know all Muslims with no exception need Catholic Faith and the Baptism of water to avoid Hell and if there is anyone among them in genuine invincible ignorance, with the Baptism of Desire or a conscience which God will consider good on the Day of Judgment it will only known to God.
Related points:
What does the Magisterium of the Catholic Church teach today?
The Magisterium teaches that everyone with no exception needs to explicitly enter the Catholic Church through Catholic Faith and the Baptism of water to go to Heaven and avoid Hell (Ex cathedra extra ecclesiam nulla salus, Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II, Catechism of the Catholic Church n.836, Dominus Iesus 20 etc).LG 16 refers to those saved implicitly and not explicitly. Those with the baptism of desire, genuine invincible ignorance and a good conscience are known to God only. They are always implicit and subjective cases.There are no de facto cases of baptism of desire that we know of.
Only those who know about the Catholic Church and do not enter will go to Hell ?
They will definitely go to Hell according to Ad Gentes 7,Vatican Council II. However all non Catholics are oriented to Hell unless they explicitly convert into the Catholic Church.If there are any among them any who are in invincible ignorance etc it will known only to God.
The Holy Spirit is also present in non-Catholic religions?
Yes, in only the good and holy things. There are also ‘errors, deficiencies and superstition’(Dominus Iesus) in these religions where the Holy Spirit cannot be present.Whatever good is found in these religions are a preparation for the Gospel, the members of these religions are oriented towards the Catholic Church and are all called to be members(Notification,Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith relative to Fr. Jacques Dupuis S.J , 2001).
Fr.Leonard Feeney was excommunicted for heresy?
There is no Church Document which says Fr.Leonard Feeney of Boston was excommunicated for heresy. He was excommunicated for indiscipline. He did not go to Rome to defend himself.Assuming he was excommunicated for heresy the ordinary Magisterium of a pope or a cardinal's statement does not supersede an infallible teaching, in this case thrice defined.
WIKIPEDIA CONTINUES LIES ON CATHOLIC TEACHING AND CATHOLICS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2010/06/wikipedia-continues-lies-on-catholic.html#links
WIKIPEDIA CONTINUES LIES ABOUT CATHOLIC TEACHING AND CATHOLICS-2
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2010/06/wikipedia-continues-lies-about-catholic.html#links
CATHOLICS NEED TO CAMPAIGN AGAINST WIKIPEDIA
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2010/06/catholics-need-to-campaign-against.html#links
ROBERT KENNEDY ASKED RICHARD CUSHING TO SUPPRESS FR.LEONARD FEENEY
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2010/07/robert-kennedy-asked-richard-cushing-to.html#links
HOW IS THE SSPX IN HERESY? : FORUM ASKS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2010/07/how-is-sspx-in-heresy-forum-asks.html
eBAY SELLS PRODUCT WITH FALSE INFORMATION
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2010/07/ebay-sells-product-with-false.html
-Lionel Andrades
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2010/07/blog-australia-incognita-hit-by-basic.html
http://australiaincognita.blogspot.com/2010/07/who-then-can-be-daved-traditionalist.html
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