WHERE IS THE CHURCH DOCUMENT WHICH SAYS LUTHERANS CAN BE SAVED IN GENERAL IN THEIR RELIGION ?

This is the third email I have received,with reference to the post on Cardinal Bernard Law. I have responded within the e-mail.

Dear Sue,


Praised be Jesus and Our Lady.

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010

Lionel, either we are getting confused with language or you are not understanding the doctrine and the Baltimore Catechism which I have quoted is strictly before Vatican II and from the council of Trent.

Lionel : Sue, Here is the passage from the Baltimore Catechism you have sent me.

Baptism is necessary to salvation, because without it we cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven.


Those who through no fault of theirs die without Baptism, though they have never committed sin, cannot enter Heaven neither will they go to Hell. After the Last Judgment there will be no Purgatory. Where, then, will they go? God in His goodness will provide a place of rest for them, where they will not suffer and will be in a state of natural peace; but they will never see God or Heaven...

We agree there is a baptism of desire and there is invincible ignorance. It is also mentioned in other Church documents.


This is usually called implicit faith or implicit salvation. We agree that those who die with implcit faith are not condemned.

It is NOT an exception.

Lionel : If implicit faith is not an exception is it the ordinary way of salvation for all non Catholics?


The Catechism of the Catholic Church (1257) says the baptism of water (given to adults with Catholic Faith ) is the ordinary means of salvation.The Church knows of no other means. While 1257 also recognises that there could be exceptions to the Sacraments.

 Secondly do you recognise an ex cathedra dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus? For centuries the Church taught according to this dogma that everyone with no exception needs Catholic Faith and the Baptism of water to avoid Hell.You have not commented on this point.


Thirdly Vatican Council II, Ad Gentes 7 says those who know about the Catholic Church and yet do not enter are on the way to Hell. This would mean millions of educated non Catholics throughout the world in modern cities are going to Hell.'those who do not believe will be condemned'-Mark 16:16.

3/4 of the world is NOT Catholic or even Christian.

Lionel: According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7, Lumen Gentium 14) millions of people know about Jesus and the Catholic Church and yet do not enter - they are on the way to Hell.

To say Lutherans are going to hell if they don't turn Catholic was ALWAYS incorrect doctrine

Lionel : It was based on the teachings of the popes,Councils and saints.

- sounds like something you heard in school from some misinformed sister. hmmm?

Lionel : I say it based on the ex cathedra,infallibe dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. I say it based on Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.


What is your basis for denying it?

You have only quoted implicit faith from the Baltimore Catechism. You are unable to judge who has a genuine baptism of desire or is in invincible ignorance.Only God can judge.


In the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston it was mentioned that there can be implicit faith in certain circumstances but the ordinary way to salvation is the baptism of water.

So you still have not quoted any Church text which says that Lutherans and other non Catholics can be saved in general in their religion without them having to convert into the Catholic Church.

Tell me, are you a member of a "traditionalist Catholic church"?

No. I go for Mass in Italian, in Latin and the Tridentine Rite and a few times in the Greek Byzantine Rite in Rome.I live in the centre of Rome and all these Rites are available near by.


No I am not a member but I sympathise with them. They are faithful to Catholic dogmas and do not create new doctrines and heresies.

Because if so, you are NOT united with Rome. As the late Fr Robert Fox said, "Jumping off the boat to the left or the right is still jumping off the boat."

Seems the traditionalist churches have already been falling into bad doctrine and this is what Jesus predicted for those who schismed from the Mother church.

Lionel : I do not know which Church you assume you belong to but you are clearly in mortal sin.


1) You reject an ex cathedra dogma


2) And so you reject the infallibility of the Holy Father.


3)You do not consider this a mortal sin and receive the Eucharist in this terrible condition.


4) Here is a passage from my last e-mail to you.


Lionel: This is modernism which the popes have condemned.
There is the ex cathedra dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (outside the Church there is no salvation) it has not been retracted or changed. Every Catholic needs to believe in an ex cathedra teaching. Since the popes have defined this dogma ex cathedra, it is infallible.
So every Lutheran needs to enter the Catholic Church to avoid Hell.
If you still say No then you are saying that dogmas are relative like the ex cathedra teaching on the Immaculate Conception of Our Lady.
You are saying that there is no objective reality at the supernatural level which is fixed and permanent. You could indicate that Hell and mortal sin are relative too.
If you believe this is a teaching of Vatican Council II please note it is your interpretation of the Council text. The Council affirms the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus as does the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Please clarify.

In Christ


Lionel